Re: Guns
 

California already has pretty restrictive gun laws so now they're fiddling around the edges of them. For example the registration of long guns came into force at the start of January - Canada recently scrapped the registration of long guns, so California by any reasonable measure has tougher gun laws now than Canada does.

The point being that I keep seeing articles about how guns should be treated the same way as cars - well in California you have to take a test in order to be able to buy a gun, and moreover you have to take that test every 5 years if you want to keep on buying guns, which is more restrictive than for getting a DL. Guns are registered in California. You have to undergo a pretty extensive criminal and mental health history background check - which is way more than you have to do to buy a car. Handguns are subject to various "safety" tests, to the point now that there are no new handgun models that can be introduced for sale in California as the manufacturers cannot comply with the requirements. "Assault weapons" are banned in California - that bill you mention would have broadened the ban so far that even super left-winger Jerry Brown refused to sign it.

And none of this of course lets you have a gun in a public place, like you can with a car. To do that you have to get a carry permit from the Sheriff, which requires a training course which is given at the local community college.

And so on.

Re: Guns
 

+1

This is what I was partially referring to in my Hollywood/gaming comment, there is a theme of "retribution" writ large in popular American culture, and I think it influences some of the less stable members of the society. The massacre perpetrators have a heightened sense of injustice, and the consequences are tragic.

Admittedly this happens all the over the world. The Chechen school massacre, for example. But it is somehow more understandable in a situation of war, national suppression or even terrorism. It should not happen in places like affluent California or Connecticut.

Re: Guns
 

Your kids are firing shotguns at 8 & 11?

Re: Guns
 

Well yes, this is what I always think when I go into say, Cabela's or Bass Pro Shops (although I rarely do as their prices are bonkers). Go up to the gun counter in Canada and the discussion is about what is the best type of ammunition to go hunting or target shooting, go into one in the US and the discussion is what is the best type of ammunition to kill someone when they break into your house, etc.

Contrary to popular belief there is no specific law that says you can't have a gun for self-defence in your house in Canada, it's just not really the "done" thing. You could if you wanted to keep a shotgun under the bed with a trigger lock on it, but who does? It just seems silly to do it.

Re: Guns
 

If that is true & is actually enforced then how did Elliot Rodgers pass?

Re: Guns
 

Well this isn't quite true. To concede a point to the NRA, there are many Americans that live in very rural locations in which it would take too long for law enforcement to reach their property. And fewer neighbours around. This is much less the case in Europe.

Re: Guns
 

With appropriate supervision

They prefer the 22 target rifles, the little one needs help dealing with the kick with the shotgun. I forget what gauge it is... smaller than a 12 gauge for less kick.

Cant be a member of the club till they are 12 I think... cant own a gun until 16 maybe?

Re: Guns
 

You have to watch this thrilling video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uX_dWQQA_zM and then take a written test on it, which is analogous to the PAL safety test in Canada, in California though it is a de facto licensing requirement as you can't buy a gun without a certificate and it has to be renewed every 5 years.

Mr Rodgers hadn't been committed or even put on a psych hold, going to see a psychiatrist and having a chat with him doesn't prohibit you from owning a gun. Psychiatrists are supposed to report specific threats to the police, but he apparently never made any, so there was no reason for him to be reported. So he passed the background check. From what I can gather in the press, his parents also didn't know he owned guns, so they never mentioned it to the police - however the police could have checked with the DoJ and discovered his gun ownership, but they never even bothered to look at his YouTube videos after his mother called the police.

Re: Guns
 

Bottom line, it will keep happening.

Re: Guns
 

Perhaps he bought them before he got sick?

No system is going to be perfect, and there are a lot of guns available illegally anyway. Lets face it, killing people is illegal and that also doesnt stop people doing it.

The problem for me is not in the selling and licensing of guns, its in recognising when people are going to go postal and getting effective treatment in time, and for a country with some of the best facilities in the world, the US is woeful at providing it for all that need it. Clearly no sane person goes on a killing spree, pretty much by definition

Then again there was the guy on a greyhound bus out west who hacked off another passengers head , so the system here isnt perfect either, with or without guns available.

Re: Guns
 

But mental illness does not always mean violence, so a shrug of the shoulders and saying he was getting counselling hardly explains why.

Re: Guns
 

Oh ok. Didn't realise that shotguns came in different sizes.

Re: Guns
 

The Guardian has a whole series going on now about mental healthcare in the US: http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...health-funding

Re: Guns
 

The fundamental difference between guns and cars is this: the primary purpose of cars is to get somebody from A to B. The primary purpose of guns is to get somebody from alive to dead. The two are not even remotely the same, and perhaps it is the inability of American commentators to see this, that is causing so much crap to be written.

Re: Guns
 

Well guns are designed for a very wide variety of uses, not just for killing things, many guns are designed purely for making holes in pieces of paper or as signalling devices. I see no problem in people owning guns for the purposes of killing, you can't perform pest control with wishful thinking and it's more discriminate than a trap.

But anyway, the main flaw I always see in that argument is that generally speaking, if you're using a car on private property there is basically zero regulation, anyone can drive it. It's only on public roads where there is regulation. Conversely, merely to possess a firearm you have to jump through various hoops and having it in a public place in Canada is basically illegal unless you're transporting it from A to B. In the US you typically have to get a permit.

Re: Guns
 

This would explain the disproportionate prison population on an international comparison. Saw a chart this week, can't recall where, but US was massively out of step.

Re: Guns
 

The primary purpose of all the guns Ive ever used is to go bang and turn clay pigeons to dust.

If all guns were intended to turn people to corpses, they would perhaps all be either handguns or assault rifles.

Regardless of purpose, Cars still kill more people than guns, and based on a non scientific observation of Ontario gun owners and car drivers in action I would bet my house that a far larger proportion of gun owners are acting responsibly to prevent any accidents as a consequences of their actions than the you can say for the car driving population. Far too many of them get behind the wheel of a 2 ton machine and become overly aggressive morons.

Re: Guns
 

Your first paragraph is semantic bollocks. We're not talking about starting pistols or signal flares. And there isn't a gun designed for making holes in anything (pieces of paper upwards) that can't be used to make holes in people. Nor are we talking about farmers and pest control operatives.

As to the second paragraph, I thought I'd expressed pretty clearly my opinion that comparing gun ownership to car ownership is as useful an exercise as comparing ravens to writing-desks. What is the point you're trying to make? That it should be harder to own a car, or easier to own a gun - or that, in fact, cars and guns are different and there is necessarily a different path to licensing and ownership?

Re: Guns
 

No. No, it's not. Shooting clays may be your primary purpose, but the gun was designed as an instrument of death. Period.

Again, no. Shotguns are largely for turning animals into corpses. But they can still be used for turning people into corpses quite effectively, as it happens.
Again with this spurious comparison of guns and cars. They are not comparable.

Re: Guns
 

You should try shooting a 4 gauge unless you plan on bowling the next day. :rofl:

Re: Guns
 

Will stick with 22's when my next chance for gunnery comes around.

Re: Guns
 

Oh no of course not, just like not everyone who is bullied, comes from broken homes or owns a gun would do the same, or even someone else with a combination of these things, it's purely down to the individual. It is still a good idea to identify & address all the factors leading up to it though, to see if anything could've been done to prevent it & possible make changes that might reduce it happening again

Re: Guns
 

Gotta love a good thread fight! :rofl:

Re: Guns
 

How many threads have we had since the Aurora Colorado movie theatre shooting and how many more will we have after this recent one.
Whats the betting that another thread will open up in another couple of months:(
People with guns kill people. A gun laid on the ground will not kill you unless handled by another person. Now the question is why is that gun being allowed to be laid on the ground or under the pillow or propped up against the back door.
Criminals or psychos or disturbed people don't care about MMPI testing, applying for a licence or completing courses. They get hold of a gun by any means necessary and thats all they need. Enough people out there who don't care who they sell or lend a gun to.

Re: Guns
 

I have to say that I found it very odd that PAL testing is done by private individuals. Leaves it open to all sorts! It should surely be done by the RCMP. Maybe a day course with a talk, info, practising with weapons etc, then a practical and written test.:thumbup:

Re: Guns
 

Guns are tools, and some people need guns to do some jobs - farmers, for example. Sport, yes. Hunting, yes. Handguns for personal use in the public arena? Not so much.

In order to possess a gun you should need a valid and specific reason, and I'm sorry, but in the United States of America, in the 21st Century - the greatest God-damned country in the whole God-damned world! - it's not good enough to say you need it for "protection".

If you really need a gun to keep your family safe, then you are admitting that your civilisation is ****ed. Perhaps we should send a UN Peacekeeping Force in.

Re: Guns
 

True.

If someone is that twisted, it could easily be done as a stabbing rampage or a driving rampage, or a mass poisoning and this kind of thing has happened in many different countries. I guess it comes down to an increase in seriously flawed people!:blink:

Re: Guns
 

What have the UN troops done to deserve being sent to places like Detroit, Chicago, LA and New Orleans?
Maybe those 2 x Icelandic members or the 3 from Grenada, or 16 from Samoa and 22 from Singapore will sort them out.

Re: Guns
 

Nope, definitely designed with clays in mind,and a target 22 would hardly be first choice for a killing spree either.

Much as I agree that gun control in the US is a sacred cow in need of slaughtering, its foolish to pretend that all guns are the problem. Many casual and leasure users have never ever taken the life of any kind (mozzies excepted)

I hate to spout anything "NRA related" in this context, but its true that guns dont kill people, its the people with the gun that kill, and without a gun to fulfill their purpose they could just as easily plow through a school bus line in a stolen Caddy Escalade.

Gun control is only part of the bigger picture. Laws alone wont stop the senseless violence, after all, it is, correct me if Im wrong, illegal to murder people in the first place, right?

Re: Guns
 

Guns naturally make mass murders easier to commit. How does Canadian news cover these kinds of stories, particularly on TV?


This gives a few chilling ideas about why certain cultures experience them more than others.

Re: Guns
 

Perhaps a moot point as virtually everyone here watches CNN

US and Canadian media are largely indistinguishable, unless a drama or comedy happens to be "canadian content", in which case its probably distinctly second rate.

Re: Guns
 

Did someone mention my name :D (Mr. Jossie here BTW!)

Here's a pic taken in the Kootenays. My first Buck! Filled the freezer for a while and tasted great!

Re: Guns
 

Kind of like a fishing rod, wouldn't you agree? Not that I have anything against fishing ;)

Re: Guns
 

An ATV for ploughing up the trails. A caravan for holding up the traffic. And, of course, a dead thing. No wonder you're so proud to be you.

Re: Guns
 

The dog and the woman in the pic don't look too impressed

Re: Guns
 

Dbd33 you can't tar all shooters/hunters with the same brush,that's the same as stereotypicaly saying that:
All Englishmen are drunken football hooligans
All Scotsmen are whiskey drinking ginger haired nutters
All Muslims are terrorists
All Germans are Nazis
Anyone with half a brain knows that none of the above are true,just like not all hunters or firearms owners drive around on quads pissed and making a mess!

I rarely drink,a 12 pack of beer will sit in my fridge for months as I don't enjoy getting drunk,I don't take drugs either,I also know that I am more responsible than you are with firearms as I was trained in the Brittish Armed Forces.

As for someone's comment about everyone has a bad day,well even when I watched my mother die,or any of the 3 times my missus had a miscarriage,or lost any of my jobs I never once considered going out and killing someone,NOT once,yes I was depressed,who would not be?

Nice deer there Jossie btw!

Re: Guns
 

Guns have absolutely no place in society. Honestly, who thinks it's a sensible idea to introduce kids to firearms "for fun"? I can't abide this line of "oh come on, it's cultural differences - deal with it." The right to bear arms (in Canada or US) has as much modern meaning as outlawing homosexuality or forbidding women priests (which never had any meaning of course). It's not cultural in Canada to use or own a gun. It's an excuse for members of the rural community to have some playtime at the expense of animals. And on that note, if we never shot a deer ever again in Ontario would we really be overrun by a rampaging, stampeding population? Of course not. And if hunting is the concern, why own 13 guns etc? This is all about choice, and right wing politics too naturally.

Mental health is a factor in big sprees but it's way too simplistic. Ever wondered why someone doesn't ram up the sidewalk on a busy Yonge St? You'd surely get more people that way ... Guns are symbolic, about power over other people. A car is just a vehicle. Its symbolism is less meaningful. As long as guns are in society, and being so integrated at a grassroots level, this problem will always exist. Not that Iain's urchins won't turn out to be fine upstanding citizens I'm sure!

Re: Guns
 

'Anyone can have a bad day' means that evaluating someone's mental health as a snapshot is unlikely to be effective in predicting their future behaviour. It doesn't mean 'Everyone is going to kill someone if they have a bad day'.

Re: Guns
 

Yeah.

It's embarrassing/disgusting that there are parents on here who encourage/allow their kids to fire guns.

I also struggle with this car/gun comparison. Why not compare dropping a TV on some ones head with firing a gun it's so stupid. Guns are designed for damage end of........they should be withdrawn from retail.

Re: Guns
 

Except you can catch fish with a fishing rod. Have a look and then throw them back in the sea/lake/water and there is no harm done what so ever.

Try pulling a bullet out.

The two don't really have anything in common.