Alan2005

You forgot pol pot.

Oink

And that Spurs - Man City FC Cup match in 2004.

Oink

Its easy to flippantly dismiss our concerns while we desperately struggle to reconcile ethical and moral values with theological dogma within western pluralist democratic societies.

Alan2005

It is isn't it.

JamesM

Concerns dismissed!

Shard

The question to consider is what informs the human condition?
Assume two mutually exclusive possibilities:

1. Religion
2. All but religion

My argument is simply that in case 1 (excluding anomalies such dictatorships) there will be more injustice and irrationality than in case 2. That is why I find the "peaceful coexistence" argument tenuous at best.

Oink

Holy sweet potato fries!!!

Shard

+111

Oakvillian

But your assumptions are a nonsense. Religion informs the human condition in the context of everything else, and everything else informs the human condition in the context of religion. At some utopian point in the long distant future that may cease to be the case, but it is impossible to extract religion from the consciousness of contemporary humanity.

And why are dictatorships anomalous and easy to dismiss? They're been responsible for quite a lot of human misery. How do you even define a dictatorship - what's the difference between a dictatorship and a one-party state with a strong and charismatic leader? You seem happy to throw out as "anomalies" quite a lot of the recent non-religious causes of human suffering, simply because it doesn't serve your argument to exclude them. YOu might just as well say "religious people are all peaceful (excluding fundamentalists, of course, they're anomalies)."

Oink

I thought religion and dictatorship was all about paternal love and worship and when they die or step aside one can finally grow up and realize ones own efficacy as a human being.

Shard

I've emboldened what I see as nonsense, as in...it makes no sense. We can't rewind the tape and extract the impact religion has had on our minds, but we can move forward without it. I've never suggested that it can or should be removed from human consciousness, indeed as a myth and story I think it's worthwhile and enjoy early Christian art and visiting churches and Cathedrals.

Dictatorships have (and are) responsible for much human misery. No dispute of that fact. The point is that the 'problem of dictatorships' does not prove that religion is the sole alternative for a fair gentle society. It is an alternative, but arguably an inferior one to say humanism.

Ending religion is not a distant utopian ideal, for most in Europe true belief has already ended. There is probably a downward tipping point in some decades time when almost all Europeans will look to Christian religion as a cultural cannon rather than moral philosophy and supernatural protection.

Alan2005

There has been a lot of anti-religion around lately and a cynic might think some of this is poorly disguised racism.

I'm an atheist. The reason I am one is simple: there is no god, the holy books are fiction, and there is no such thing as spirituality other than what people invent in their heads.

I'm not an athiest because I think that religion per se is a great evil and should be stopped. Ultimately any dogmatically followed ideology has the potential to cause misery even ones that are entirely material.

Oink

The problem arises because religion is identified so strongly with culture. Unless you're very skilled in academic debate, it is difficult for a civilian to have a conversation about theology without conflating this with criticism of culture and cultural practices.

Shard

Agreed. I'm obviously a zealot, no apologies, I just abhor injustice and irrationality. Despite a semi-religious upbringing, I've been atheist since the age of ten and always strident in my views.

ExKiwilass

I feel slightly differently, because, I've noticed as a woman, a lot of religion's worst strictures seem to fall on my gender. Thus I take religious BS more personally. I've read the "holy" books myself and there's loads of examples of sex discrimination.

An example is this: in spite of it being proven as effective and largely safe, the abortion pill still isn't available in canada. You can't tell me there's not some religious bias going on there - it certainly ISN'T a science-based decision, and yet again, the consequences of that (lack of pill) fall mostly on women. No doubt some smug right wing religious git will be sitting smiling somewhere about that.