Europe's Stark Options
 

"An extreme secularism predominates in Europe, especially among its elites, to the point that believing Christians (such as George W. Bush) are seen as mentally unbalanced and unfit for public office. In 2005, Rocco Buttiglione, a distinguished Italian politician and Catholic believer, was denied a position as Italy's European Union commissioner because of his views on such issues as homosexuality. Entrenched secularism also means empty churches: in London, researchers estimate, more Muslims attend mosques on Friday than do Christians churches on Sunday, although the city is home to roughly 7 times more born-Christians than born-Muslims. As Christianity fades, Islam beckons; Prince Charles exemplifies the fascination of many Europeans with Islam."

The rest of a lengthy, but worth reading article about Islam in Europe, can be found here:

http://www.danielpipes.org/pf.php?id=4323

Re: Europe's Stark Options
 

???Why???


Buttigliones "hardline" catholic views were hardly going to be suitable for a position like EU commisioner, nothing to do with his christian views in general.

Is he arguing that Bush isnt unbalanced and unfit for office? Its nothing to do with his faith though, its to do with his actions.


http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Daniel_Pipes

Re: Europe's Stark Options
 

That Tony Blair, is he an extreme secularist? How about Gordon, Church of Scotland, Brown? Nicolas, Catholic, Sarkozy? Angela, Lutheran, Merkel?
The Queen's the head of the Church of England so it can't be her. Is it the Pope who represents the secularist elite?

Really if the opening phrase of the edited clip is plainly nonsense there's little incentive to plough through the article itself.

Re: Europe's Stark Options
 

Could've been. Sorry, not much interested in EU commission stuff. Personally, I can only applaud the fact that a religious fanatic (and, yes, someone who wants to declare abortions illegal IS a religious fanatic in my book).

Wow.
"Daniel Pipes is a neo-conservative, orientalist, extreme right-wing Zionist"

According to Wikipedia:
Daniel Pipes (born September 9, 1949) is an American historian and counter-terrorism analyst who specializes in the Middle East.
and

His work has attracted both admiration and criticism as a result of his view that Islamism is incompatible with democracy, freedom, multiculturalism, and human rights.

Slight difference of tone, innit? Personally, I tend to frown upon descriptions like "extreme right-wing Zionist", "man-hating lesbian feminazi" or "tree-hugging commie-lover liberal"; not that such persons wouldn't exist - alas, they DO exist, but I don't think they're usually the ones targeted by such invectives. Remember Orianna Fallaci? She was a partisan in WWII, opposed the Greek fascist junta, the Vietnam war and denounced the Central- and South-American military fascism. But hey, once she said "watch this Islam thing creeping into Europe", she was branded a fascist by some. How could one get more confused than that?

Re: Europe's Stark Options
 

Europe must seem "extremely secularist" to Americans. I hardly see an European head of state declare that his disastrous political moves are "inspired by God", like the baboonish Dubya did. For Americans, disallowing religious symbols in public schools, like they do in France, is contravening to their version of Human Rights and Freedoms. Hence, the "extreme secularism".

Okey-dokey.

Re: Europe's Stark Options
 

Eh? The US doesn't have religion in schools, most of Europe (and Canada come to that) does. Education in the US is more secular than that in Europe, not less.

I don't know that George W. Bush claims to be inspired by God but the Turkish government is one example of a European government that makes that claim; the ruling party is a religious one.

Re: Europe's Stark Options
 

Here's a quote from your Wiki link:

"There can be either an Israel or a Palestine, but not both. To think that two states can stably and peacefully coexist in the small territory between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea is to be either naïve or duplicitous. If the last seventy years teach anything, it is that there can be only one state west of the Jordan River. Therefore, to those who ask why the Palestinians must be deprived of a state, the answer is simple: grant them one and you set in motion a chain of events that will lead either to its extinction or the extinction of Israel."

How does that fail to qualify Pipes as a "extreme right-wing Zionist"?

Re: Europe's Stark Options
 

A couple of quotes from Orianna Fallaci supporting the idea that she was a hateful xenophobic harridan:

'“Good Heavens!” she writes. “They really take long shots, these sons of Allah! How could they succeed in hitting so well that target protected by a balcony and more than two yards distant from their urinary apparatus?” Six pages later, she describes urine streaks in the Piazza San Marco, in Venice, and wonders if Muslim men will one day “shit in the Sistine Chapel.”'

'Do believe me: everything started with Khomeini. Without Khomeini, we would not be where we are. What a pity that, when pregnant with him, his mother did not choose to have an abortion.”'

http://www.newyorker.com/archive/200...?currentPage=1

Re: Europe's Stark Options
 

Sorry, should've said US and Canada. Just try to wear a crucifix, a kirpan or a veil in a French public school. That's secularism - and, well, the modern state (as in: European state) as we've known it since the French Revolution IS a secular state.

Oh, come now... the Turkish government? are Turks really European, have they followed the European tradition and socio-political development? I have a profound respect for Ataturk and for his noble intentions, but - did anyone think it would really last, when there have been two different Turkeys, a quasi-europenised, well-educated minority and a very poor, quasi-illiterate (according to Western standards) majority, for whom learning and reciting the Quran (just like they had been doing for centuries) was all they got? The Asian part of Turkey was bound to prevail, as they were more numerous, they had more children than "modern" Turks and their chronic poverty kept being systematically ignored by the Ankara governments. For many people living in Eastern Turkey, there is little difference between their way of live and that of their grand-grand-parents - and you're telling me they're "European" now?

Re: Europe's Stark Options
 

And, pray tell, with which statement do you disagree? Have you never been disturbed by yobos desecrating monuments (remember Ottawa, last year?) or works of art? do you think that Khomeini's theocratic state is a good thing?

Re: Europe's Stark Options
 

France is a secular state with a leader who has religious convictions. The US is also a secular state with a leader who has religious convictions. I'm not getting a sense of a secular elite here.


Would you say that the EU defines Europe? If so then either yes, Turkey is part of Europe now, or it will be once it joins.

Re: Europe's Stark Options
 

Red herring. You're advancing Daniel Pipes and Orianni Fallaci as credible commentators. I think they are/were a pair of crackpots peddling irrational bile. I've given you quotes defining Pipes as a Zionist and Fallaci as a spiteful old woman.

FWIW I don't much consider other people's excrement though I suppose the idea of watching pompous figures such as the Pope or Steven Harper take a dump is quite amusing. Especially over a Turkish toilet. Do you think Muslims will shit in the Sistine Chapel? Is that part of a plan?

Re: Europe's Stark Options
 

OK, all right. Why did you get stuck on that? the article is about Islam in Europe - I thought we'd clarified the "why-Americans-see-Europeans-as-secular" thing.

The EU does not define Europe in my view. The EU defines economic statutes, barriers and visa waivers. They could, in theory, invite Morocco to become part of the EU. Or Israel. Or whoever. But membership in a trade club does not make someone European. History, cultural spaces, geography - they do.

Re: Europe's Stark Options
 

Ok. Let's move on.

I'm not clear on who you think counts as a European. Do you accept that Trevor Phillips is a European? How about Mohamed Al-Fayed or Rachida Dati? They're three people having wildly different histories and belonging to different cultures but geographically on the same continent.

Re: Europe's Stark Options
 

Oh, OK. Crackpots, irrational. Fine by me. I think we both defined whom we admire. You call an ex-partisan, lifelong anti-fascist character a "harridan" and "a crackpot peddling irrational bile". Personally, I admire someone like that.

I think you're just trying to make a caricature here. Lack of arguments?