MillieF

That's fine and well, but none of the member states jumped into ratify the treaty with any degree of joy, Denmark and France were most unhappy at the time, perhaps we should have requested more exemptions, but that's all a bit late now. The reality of Europe in 2016 to that in 1992 is entirely different.

There was at that time an 'esprit de joie de vivre! '. We didn't know that Spain, Portugal, Greece, Italy, Ireland ad infinitum, would have crippling economic woes that would threaten the unity of the whole.

Then came the unrest of the general larger world, caused mainly as a result of the Arab Spring that has put so very many immediate demands on so much of Europe, and has caused unease and terror that can easily be fanned to flames by organs like the Sun.

Brexit will be a knee jerk reaction - we need to stand together take a big deep breath and wait a while, I fear we shan't and there is a danger that we leave. Britain can't go into hiding, and it's much easier when you are a club member to get the rules that you don't like changed.

Pulaski

Not when you are in a tiny minority, often a minority of one, but anyway your argument is irrelevant because it is predicated on the now blatantly obviously wrong premise that the EU will continue as a club with 27 members when the UK leaves.

Bermudashorts

Britain has had no luck whatsoever in getting rules changed. Even with the referendum looming there has been no joy.

I am not a member of the local bridge club, so I couldn't give a toss what their rules are, as they don't apply to me.

holly_1948

I think the EU will continue. But not with the present membership.
If Britain leaves then France will leave also (and form a free trade area with Britain).
Common market - good.
Ever closer union - bad.

Pulaski

Sweden will leave, and the PIIGS will probably leave (presumably trashing the euro experiment too), and I would guess Denmark too, as it still has its own currency; after that, who knows. France leaving wouldn't have been my first guess, nor my second or third. Agreed, 100%

Shard

If Britain leaves, as looks increasingly likely, after a few years of valiant effort, the whole project will crumble.

beckiwoo

That's odd. I got mine 6 weeks ago from my local council.

Didn't even have to pay the postage back

JonboyE

Now an MP campaigning for the Remain side shot and killed. I wish they would just cancel the bloody thing.

magnumpi

Near Leeds, just seen this

British MP dies after being shot, stabbed in attack - The Globe and Mail

Oink

Not sure why its considered such a valiant effort. I thought decentralization, local control and decision making and direct democracy were generally thought of as positive.

Shard

Really? In a globalised world direct democracy only works for the insular.

I think the idea of Europe is fundamentally sound, an expression of liberal values and social conscience in a world with rising authoritarian power. It will be a great undoing by a public that is largely voting on emotion rather than intellect. Present company excepted of course.

Oink

That's not true. We're connected by instant communications and ease of travel, we manufacture and trade with lots of businesses in lots of different countries, but why do we need to be rule by a central authority, I thought that was the very antithesis of democracy.

Pulaski

What have you been smoking? The EU is a primary source of "authoritarian power", forcing a one-size-fits-all approach on 500 million people. While a single approach might work for the average person or country, it often makes little sense for most.

The euro is probably the best example, as it has worked wonders for Germany and a few of its neighbours, but has utterly screwed the PIIGS.

Shard

We might be talking at slightly cross purposes here. Nevertheless, there are many matters concerning international trade, immigration, foreign policy where the voice of the uninformed citizen is largely irrelevant if not dangerous. Can you imagine asking Texans through direct democracy what US foreign policy should be? Centralised power by an elite has its advantages too. The EU is a good example of this. There is plenty of talk about the sanctity of democratic rights, but far less about the ideals of Europe, many of which will be impacted if the EU disintegrates. In any case, there's nothing to say that systemic democratic failings within the EU can not be rectified over time. It's better for Britain and the whole continent if we stay IN.

Novocastrian

No, it's very antithesis of anarchy.