Hawkmoon77

You punch a wrong digit into your calculator, you get the wrong answer.An unquestioning reliance on the accuracy of the answer is dangerous. We were always taught to estimate the answer before even picking up a calculator.

As for problem solving, tell that to the guy building a shed, who has to estimate materials. Real life, real problem.

Gozit

This is true. I do that as well. But there is way higher risk of human error than calculation error. Remember, a computer is only as smart as the person using it. Same applies to calculators.

HGerchikov

Yes, true, calculators are wonderful things, but if you have no sense of the numbers, how do you do a quick mental check that you typed the correct number into your calculator. Basic mental arithmetic is essential for double checking.

One of my first jobs out of University was using Finite Element Analysis to calculate natural frequencies of structural steelwork (for Seismic qualification). My boss at the time was 'old school' he would not sign off any computer analysis unless it was accompanied by a hand calculation of the fundamental frequency, if that agreed with the computer results chances were the computer was right in the other frequencies.
Over the years I have seen so many hours lost by people writing up reports of utter garbage because they made a typing error in their computer input file and didn't do a basic check to see if the results made sense. After all if the computer says it, it must be so.

I think the UK is way ahead of Canada in KS1, by the end of KS4 I think it levels out. Canadian equivalent of KS1 and KS2 have a lot more emphasis on presenting and public speaking skills, doesn't come into the UK curriculum until KS3, although I have no doubt some UK schools are incorporating it at younger ages.

Edit: Sorry, got distracted partway through post , already covered by Hawkmoon. At least we are in agreement

Tirytory

Gozit- no offence but you haven't really experienced real life yet so I don't think you can comment on how basic maths which is all multiplication is and English literacy can help you... There will be times when somebody expects you to know the answer or write something without the use of a gadget. Nursing/medicine to name but two.....

I feel my son is getting more out of the smaller class sizes here than the difference in curriculum makes... Yes , if we take him back I expect he will have to play catch up but if he stays then it will all even out.. In Wales certainly there was a wait of several years to see how the new style learning played out in the end.

Shard

Great comment. That's the kind of insight/opinion I was hoping to get on this thread.

Gozit

Correct. As long as you can get a basic idea of where something is supposed to be. I don't remember my times tables, but I know that if I'm trying to figure out, say, 14*12, I don't quite know what it is, but I know 14*10 is 140, so it should be somewhere around 140-160. If its drastically off, I know its wrong.

Err, well, your boss is/was a bit backwards. But I agree, you don't take what the computer says as gospel, but computers aren't stupid. They're more likely to get the correct answer than a human, for the only way the computer can be incorrect is if the human inputs incorrect data.

Yeah agreed. I just think the Uk approach is more hands on and forward, and less theory theory theory.
My dad works in medicine and has no need for "mental maths" as its called. He carries his mobile whilst at work and uses it as a calculator/research device/note taking thingy. Cousin is also a nurse like you and has 0 need for anything beyond the very basic maths. And she hasn't memorised her times tables either.

Shard

10 x 14 = 140, 2 x 14 = 28, 140+28 = 168

No need to estimate, and no need the get a wrong estimate (as you did).

Must try harder.

christmasoompa

Are you winding us up? Sorry, but I can't believe that you can't manage to figure out that another 2 x 14 is 28, then add that on to the 140. The answer isn't even in the range you gave.

Out of interest, I've just asked my 7 year old son and he got it spot on, I can't believe that you really have to guess at such a simple sum!

Please tell me you're just joking?

Tirytory

Ok.....well I hoped I never get looked after by her then. Maths and giving medicine out go hand in hand. Unless you're blindly following a doctors orders who hasn't bothered to do the calculation themselves either- that's where errors are made and nurses in the UK are taught always to double check what they give out. Accountability lies with the nurse. Plus I've never seen a doctor with a calculator...I would expect them to be clever enough not to need it (no offence to your father but it is way off)

Shard

Gozit, we all use calculators. The point is when you know your arithmetic inside out you have an intuitive sense of numbers. You are more likely to notice if some calculation or amount is wrong.

They had a TV show where they approached shoppers in a supermarket and asked them which between two differing promotions was a better deal (different quantities at different prices and different discounts) do you know, half the shoppers were clueless.

HGerchikov

How would you know that you put the correct numbers in if you don't check it, that was my point. It wasn't a case of checking the computer was doing the calculation correctly, it was checking that the human had put the right numbers in.
At the time, I was young, and I thought the same as you, just go over the numbers as you put them in and all will be well. Over the years though I have come to really value his advice, every time I watched a colleague have to explain that they will have to do their entire analysis and report over because they made a mistake in the input file and didn't spot it.

Greenhill

You're in a job interview and you're asked the following question:

A candy bar and a single piece of candy cost $1.10 together. The candy bar is exactly one dollar more than the single piece of candy.

How much does the single piece of candy cost?

How would you react and answer this question?

Aviator

..but this is not so. If the computer program is not coded correctly or accurately, the output will be wrong, regardless of what is put into it. Excel had calculation issues at one point, Sage accounting does not accurately subtotal because of a rounding issue, which is programming.

Computers are inanimate objects, neither stupid nor clever. They only do what they are programmed to do, which is created by a person.

Computers also go wrong, I have had more than one occasion when a computer controlled flight system has malfunctioned and had to be over ridden. What came out of it had no correlation to what was put in.

Too much dependence on computers and the belief that they cannot be wrong has and will continue to lead to many unfortunate events.

Novocastrian

+1. I see this so often even among graduate students that I've given the condition a name: I call it UBISS, Unreasonable Belief In Spread-sheet Syndrome.

JamesM

Mental arithmetic is an important skill and knowing your times tables helps with that. It improves your problem solving and the ability to think on your feet.

The spreadsheet is good for displaying information and working on models and formula but no use in an environment where you have to adapt and change quickly.

I'm always irritated when I ask a supplier the cost and they get out a calculator and start putting in random numbers. It looks like they are making it up. Why can't they already have a number in their head from the conversation we've just had.