Re: COVID is making me hate Canada
 

Bollocks to that, Vaccines work when everyone has been vaccinated. People who choose not to be vaccinated need not be put to death but they should not leave their houses.

Re: COVID is making me hate Canada
 

I'm sure you don't mean "they" in the same way the conspiracy nutters do, Gozit, but that's the kind of statement those people seize on.

I think the vaccine is doing exactly as it was suggested it would do in massively reducing serous outcomes. It was never suggested as a fix-all solution but when you regularly see numbers like 75-85% of people in hospital are unvaxxed and then consider that the vaccinated are the greater proportion of the population you can see the difference it makes.
Global News 29th Sept has Ontario's unvaccinated as being 60 times more likely to end up in ICU than vaccinated.

Re: COVID is making me hate Canada
 

But, if they are aware of that figure and they choose not to get vaccinated, that's a matter for them, isn't it?
Unless they are specifically preventing you from doing something, what difference does it make to you?

The thing that really pisses me off about the current situation is the complete nonsense that, if you are vaccinated, you pose no risk to others whereas, if you are not vaccinated, people shouldn't come within 50 feet of you. Both groups are as just as likely to be carriers particularly when it is considered that only those that are vaccinated are able to attend events where they are likely to come into contact with lots of other people (nightclubs, concerts, sporting events).

Re: COVID is making me hate Canada
 

Well it isn't only a matter for them if it affects everyone (in different ways) but that wasn't what I was saying anyway. I was making a similar point to that made by Atlantic Xpat about the "they" aspect.

It's like glass half empty/half full. Some of those unvaccinated ("the vax has a chip in it") will never want to do it but there are those who may be unsure because of the "it's not tested properly" or "natural immunity is better than vaccine immunity" (as we discussed in the other thread).

Of that latter group, which is more likely to encourage them, reading that they are 60 times more likely to avoid the need for Intensive Care if vaccinated or claims that the vaccine isn't that effective?

Re: COVID is making me hate Canada
 

There seems to be evidence that vaccines do have some impacts in reducing (but not eliminating) transmission. But they are not the silver bullet in terms of once you are vaxed you can’t infect others.

So, some benefits have f being vaxed in terms of reducing spread.

The impact of vaccine mandates will hopefully be to increase the percentage of the population who are vaxed. That’s a good thing in terms of reducing impact of the disease to individuals and the healthcare system in general.

What difference do the unvaccinated make to me? For much of the time not much but when I, or someone important to me need a hospital bed, a healthcare system not on its knees. And ICU bed, a routine surgery that hasn’t been postponed because the hospital is full of unvaccinated Covid patients? Well then it matters a lot.

The personal freedom/liberty argument at its heart is selfishness. “You can’t force me to get vaccinated, it’s my right not to get it”, really means I don’t give an <expletive> for others. If to get over that selfishness people need to be inconvenienced to the point that the easiest thing is to go get jabbed, then bring it on.

Re: COVID is making me hate Canada
 

That information is already available to them, as every news report makes such statements.

I believe that the real issue here is trust in the system. When attendees at a restaurant are required to have the vaccine but those that work there don't, that makes no sense and, I am sure, leads some to believe that the powers that be are not serious about everyone getting the vaccine, otherwise such people would have to have had it too. The firefighters' union in Calgary is suing the City arguing that stating that all firefighters have to be vaccinated, or they do not get paid, adds flame to the fire. When nurses are refusing to be vaccinated that causes concern too.

I'd suggest that it also doesn't help that society has been told, "Do this, and all will be well" when that is shown to be incorrect doesn't help either. More than a third of the new cases in Alberta are those with one or two shots

Re: COVID is making me hate Canada
 

I don't believe that we disagree about most of what you have stated there. The argument being used against those not vaccinated could be used against those that smoke, drink to excess, are obese, are addicts too. Alberta has the capacity for 1000 ICU beds. If hasn't approached such numbers at any time.

Re: COVID is making me hate Canada
 

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/british...3a7e1b0fd6.png
A significant difference between vaccinated and unvaxed hospitalisation of COVID cases in Alberta

And regarding COVID spread if one is less likely to become infected then it follows that your less likely to infect others.

So if you chose not to have the vaccine then the considerate thing to do is to stay away from others.

Re: COVID is making me hate Canada
 

Please provide me the evidence that supports your assertion that those vaccinated are less likely to become infected as, as far as I can tell, such evidence doesn't exist. However, I am more than happy to be corrected.

I said new cases. Here is what you should have posted had you wished to show that what I stated was bullshit: COVID-19 Alberta statistics | alberta.ca

Re: COVID is making me hate Canada
 

High COVID hospitalizations have led to a not so small number of surgeries and other outpatient services being cancelled, so its easy to say the unvaccinated know the risk, it doesn;t affect me or anyone else, well yes it does, if your one of those who need surgery or a colonoscopy or an MRI that has been cancelled you may feel differently, or if your vaccinated in Northern BC and can get timely healthcare because the smaller northern hospitals are so overwhlemed with COVID patients, its gotten so bad up northern BC (lowest vaccination rates overall in BC) they have had to fly COVID patients to Vancouver, Surrey, Victoria area hospitals, which now have led to more cancelled healthcare services for non-COVID patients, so now unvaccinated from hundreds of km away are affecting people who need healthcare in the high vaccination areas.

It's a Domino affect.

Re: COVID is making me hate Canada
 

When you are reduced to Whataboutitism, then I rather think you've lost the argument. I think you've said you've already been vaccinated. If so, then good for you, and try and build your intellectual strawman against mandatory vaccination all you like - but you are wrong.
If you are not, then do the world a favour and do the right thing.

Re: COVID is making me hate Canada
 

You can't just say the information is available and ignore the differences in the way presented.
It's still a case of what gets paid attention to. Another good example on CBC for New Brunswick.
Headline - one in five deaths were people vaccinated.

The information about 75% of people vaccinated is there, as is the 80% of people in hospital are unvaccinated and the 80% of deaths are unvaccinated - hence the 20% or one in five.
You don't need to be a mathematician to see that if by far the greater number of people are vaccinated and that the vast majority of those suffering are not vaccinated then your chances of remaining healthy/alive are far greater being vaccinated.
But the chosen headline does not reflect that.

But not only is the headline focusing on the reverse, they've changed the point of reference to a more dramatic sounding it to one in five.

Re: COVID is making me hate Canada
 

You are taking it the wrong way.

It's already been established - and I know you have read the information - that a vaccinated person is infectious for a shorter period. This reduces the period during which they may infect others. It's also suggested - from other research - that whatever load is passed on during this reduced period of being infectious is lower than had the carrier not been vaccinated.

That means that the vaccines reduce everyone's chances of getting covid or or becoming ill from it. This is not the same as a vaccinated individual being less likely to 'get it' because they are vaccinated but it does mean they are less likely to get it because of the vaccines that others have received.

It's a subtle difference but it amounts to the same collective benefit.

Re: COVID is making me hate Canada
 

Yale Medicine good enough for ya.? "How well it works: Experts continue to learn about Pfizer’s efficacy both in the laboratory and in the real world. Pfizer’s initial Phase 3 clinical data presented in December showed its vaccine to have 95% efficacy. In April, the company announced the vaccine had 91.3% efficacy against COVID-19, based on measuring how well it prevented symptomatic COVID-19 infection seven days through up to six months after the second dose. It also found it to be 100% effective in preventing severe disease as defined by the CDC, and 95.3% effective in preventing severe disease as defined by the FDA. Another study, not yet peer-reviewed, provided more new data that brought the efficacy number down to 84% after 6 months, although efficacy against severe disease was 97%.

In August, the CDC also published studies that showed mRNA vaccine protection against infection may be waning, although the vaccines were still highly effective against hospitalization. In one CDC study, data from the state of New York showed vaccine effectiveness dropping from 91.8 to 75% against infection"
.
I'll be back once I've looked at the link you posted. Bye for now

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/british...8b6bca66f5.png
70% of new cases are not fully vaccinated.

There's further data of course on the severity of the infection.
However vaccinated people do seem to be better off.
​​I don't know if this proves what you said was bullshit as I wasn't going for that.

Re: COVID is making me hate Canada
 

Whilst we can continue to debate the above over and over one thing is clear, there will ALWAYS be people who are not going to get the vaccine. You can call them what you like, you can spout as many figures as you like about how at risk they are and you can threaten to take away their jobs, their leisure pursuits and whatever else but the fact remains a certain percentage will just not get it for whatever reason and that reason isn't always because they are a nut job. If the figures state that we are 60 times more likely to avoid ICU if we get the shot and some still don't get it then what else can you say? The issue of course with this kind of information is the distrust some have for what is broadcast and lets face it how many people are 100% trusting of the information they read. Flogging a dead horse is one phrase that comes to mind.