Canadian scientists 'muzzled'
Feb 22nd 2012 | 3:26 am
#31
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,109
From: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
Re: Canadian scientists 'muzzled'
It's lucky our ancestors didn't feel the same way or Britain would be full of old mines and waste dumps and the forests that cover most of the country would have been chopped down centuries ago.
Feb 22nd 2012 | 3:50 am
#32
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 13,402
From: South of Calgary
Feb 22nd 2012 | 3:52 am
#33
Slob
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 6,345
From: Ottineau
Re: Canadian scientists 'muzzled'
Feb 22nd 2012 | 3:59 am
#34
Born again atheist
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 30,259
From: Europe (to be specified).
Feb 22nd 2012 | 4:51 am
#35
Born again atheist
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 30,259
From: Europe (to be specified).
Re: Canadian scientists 'muzzled'
As soon as government began to provide the majority of science funding it became a political tool.
Lots of people talk about Eisenhower's 'military industrial complex' warning in his farewell address, but few remember the other part where he warned of the corruption of science by government funds. He was well ahead of his time in both respects.
Lots of people talk about Eisenhower's 'military industrial complex' warning in his farewell address, but few remember the other part where he warned of the corruption of science by government funds. He was well ahead of his time in both respects.
You might be interested in an opinion article I read recently (published last summer and for the most part written in very accessible terms).
Here's the link... http://www.cap.ca/sites/cap.ca/files...nt-hocking.pdf
An additional point not made in the piece is that Canada no longer has a Science Policy, but merely an Industrial Policy.
Feb 22nd 2012 | 8:52 am
#36
Born again atheist
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 30,259
From: Europe (to be specified).
Re: Canadian scientists 'muzzled'
And back on topic, this just arrived in my inbox...
http://www.universityaffairs.ca/muzz...m_medium=email
http://www.universityaffairs.ca/muzz...m_medium=email
Feb 22nd 2012 | 11:21 am
#37
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,244
From: Toronto, ON
Re: Canadian scientists 'muzzled'
So, scientists being barred from revealing their work to the populace by government interference.
What a surprise!
This has happened all over the world and will continue to do so.
In the UK, the government has had several issues with scientists over big stories such as Swine flu and they have also fired scientists who have disagreed with the government's preferred line on them and replaced them with those who will support the government line.
As the press in the UK often ask the government-approved scientists, then they get the government-approved response.
Scientific research is expensive so it has to be funded and this is usually by
either government grant or business.
The support of the scientific community is also important to scientists - papers submitted for publication are judged by other scientists and many are rejected and are never published. This gives some eminent scientists and high profile scientific journals control over what reaches the rest of the scientific community, never mind the wider populace.
In science, everyone is competing for grants to fund their projects and money talks.
Putting all this together, it doesn't take much to see why some scientists who do not come up with the answers the government want to hear are not afterwards successful in their fields.
The Canadian media policy on this is a disgrace and the Canadian people, who rightly make such a big deal out of their cherishing their natural heritage need to make a huge issue of this.
But, if it means signing up to Kyoto, not developing the tar sands, losing the huge economic benefits of that and letting petrol prices soar, who thinks they will?
Generally, the public just look at what is in their wallet and anything that they can be persuaded will increase that or prevent it going down is an easy sell for government anyway.
What a surprise!
This has happened all over the world and will continue to do so.
In the UK, the government has had several issues with scientists over big stories such as Swine flu and they have also fired scientists who have disagreed with the government's preferred line on them and replaced them with those who will support the government line.
As the press in the UK often ask the government-approved scientists, then they get the government-approved response.
Scientific research is expensive so it has to be funded and this is usually by
either government grant or business.
The support of the scientific community is also important to scientists - papers submitted for publication are judged by other scientists and many are rejected and are never published. This gives some eminent scientists and high profile scientific journals control over what reaches the rest of the scientific community, never mind the wider populace.
In science, everyone is competing for grants to fund their projects and money talks.
Putting all this together, it doesn't take much to see why some scientists who do not come up with the answers the government want to hear are not afterwards successful in their fields.
The Canadian media policy on this is a disgrace and the Canadian people, who rightly make such a big deal out of their cherishing their natural heritage need to make a huge issue of this.
But, if it means signing up to Kyoto, not developing the tar sands, losing the huge economic benefits of that and letting petrol prices soar, who thinks they will?
Generally, the public just look at what is in their wallet and anything that they can be persuaded will increase that or prevent it going down is an easy sell for government anyway.
In the UK, the average life expectancy of a minister is 10 months which is far too short for any meaningfully new research to be commissioned to drive policy. So, ministers have to fall back on research led by predecessors or previous chief scientists which is not always a good political move. Such a terrible shame. When it comes to the world's major problems like poverty, climate change etc etc the debates are so complex requiring research from right across the sciences and social sciences - with the stakes so high too - that any politically motivated short-term solutions will always be a waste of time and effort.
As for the odd comparative study between oil sands and coal I've seen some Canadian PR in my time on this issue but that was plain ridiculous. I totally agree with Novo here. Apples and oranges.
Last edited by London Mike; Feb 22nd 2012 at 11:24 am.
Feb 22nd 2012 | 11:28 am
#38
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,244
From: Toronto, ON
Re: Canadian scientists 'muzzled'
With the EU about to impose restrictions on fossil fuel imports of the nature of the oil sands (footprint-wise) - so the unavailability of one "growth market" - and the extent that Canada barrels this up and sends it south of the border, then yes I think this is fair comment.
Feb 22nd 2012 | 1:08 pm
#39
Born again atheist
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 30,259
From: Europe (to be specified).
Re: Canadian scientists 'muzzled'
With the EU about to impose restrictions on fossil fuel imports of the nature of the oil sands (footprint-wise) - so the unavailability of one "growth market" - and the extent that Canada barrels this up and sends it south of the border, then yes I think this is fair comment.
My quibble is with the idea that Canada might "barrel it up". On no, that would involve investing in Canada and providing jobs here.
That's something Big Oil couldn't give a shit about, so they'll just pump the bitumen along the nearest available pipeline to wherever.
Feb 23rd 2012 | 8:34 am
#41
Born again atheist
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 30,259
From: Europe (to be specified).
Re: Canadian scientists 'muzzled'
The EU has already passed the FQD. What is being voted on is the implementation.
There's a good briefing paper on the process here.
There's a good briefing paper on the process here.
Feb 23rd 2012 | 8:54 am
#42
Was in Canada, now home.
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,388
From: Devon
Re: Canadian scientists 'muzzled'
It's not all about tar sands oil. Britain wants a banding system that will give a heavier rating to the heavier conventional crudes. The system on the table to be implemented doesn't do that, and if it had been passed the next review would have been in 2015. Hence Britain's abstention.
Personally, I think it would have been better to implement now and amend later, but Greenpeace have complimented Norman Baker, the responsible minister, while FoE are accusing him of being in cahoots with Canada. Canadian lobbying may have been influential, although I doubt it, but if so, all they've bought is a short breathing space
Personally, I think it would have been better to implement now and amend later, but Greenpeace have complimented Norman Baker, the responsible minister, while FoE are accusing him of being in cahoots with Canada. Canadian lobbying may have been influential, although I doubt it, but if so, all they've bought is a short breathing space
Feb 23rd 2012 | 9:03 am
#44
Born again atheist
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 30,259
From: Europe (to be specified).
Re: Canadian scientists 'muzzled'
It's not all about tar sands oil. Britain wants a banding system that will give a heavier rating to the heavier conventional crudes. The system on the table to be implemented doesn't do that, and if it had been passed the next review would have been in 2015. Hence Britain's abstention.
Personally, I think it would have been better to implement now and amend later, but Greenpeace have complimented Norman Baker, the responsible minister, while FoE are accusing him of being in cahoots with Canada. Canadian lobbying may have been influential, although I doubt it, but if so, all they've bought is a short breathing space
Personally, I think it would have been better to implement now and amend later, but Greenpeace have complimented Norman Baker, the responsible minister, while FoE are accusing him of being in cahoots with Canada. Canadian lobbying may have been influential, although I doubt it, but if so, all they've bought is a short breathing space
Feb 23rd 2012 | 9:26 am
#45
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 13,402
From: South of Calgary
Re: Canadian scientists 'muzzled'
