Canada & Kyoto
 

Well I suppose it says something about the new world order that India & China are getting the moral highground

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environmen...climate-treaty

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

I imagine it's no shock to anyone that I completely agree with the sentiments expressed in the article. The fools in power have discredited Canada and made all thinking Canadians ashamed.

And for what? Just because they can (or they say they can).

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

Obviously then India and China wouldn't dream of purchasing any oil from Canada.

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

Frankly, I'd be surprised if anyone will buy anything from Canada at all.

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

Unfortnatley I doubt it. There is a long history of people buying oil from regimes with questionable records in all kinds of areas. When it comes to oil many people seem to not be too picky.

I suspect that Canada just said and did what the US was too politically sensitive to do. Global warming / climate change seems to be a scarily low priority among the electorate in north america

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

We'll only stop burning oil when either there's none left, or no oxygen to burn it with. Hopefully the former will happen before the latter.

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

I've no scruples either - cheese from Old or New France, fridge from Germany, mandarins from China anything goes.......

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

From the Globe and Mail today...

It doesn’t matter what Canadians tell pollsters about how much they are concerned with climate change; what matters is the choices we make. And whenever we have been offered the choice of accepting personal inconvenience in order to reduce greenhouse gas emissions or of making sure that fossil fuels are cheap and plentiful, we have consistently and overwhelmingly chosen the latter.

And politicians have paid attention.

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

Say one thing, do another

Just a simple look at what is being driven on the highway will tell all you need to know...

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

I think the Uk already does - can't find it now but think I posted a link before about that

I understand this, as it is easy to challenge theories about future predictions as our choices now won't affect us personally - expecting personal choice to protect the future is a tad optimistic, let alone the fact that those who are struggling now really don't look to the future

glad I don't have kids.

floods aren't cheap & droughts intolerable though so we will see how many of those it takes to reset the politics a little (2007 created a new act in the UK)
Canada may not feel so exposed to those (I haven't looked), but given the water pcc in some parts it certainly doesn't seem so worried.

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

To be honest I dont think the average canadian even associates global warming with floods and droughts, Canada has so much fresh water its not a concern. I suspect many canadian residents half look forward to a less severe winter, unaware of the global political turmoil that will also be a result.

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

So, in a nutshell, Canadian residents are (on average) stupid?

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

oh dear - the average are ill informed so hopefully the wider education will improve - it is not universally accessible water - towns spread out - already on rota cuts - and massive infrastructure would be needed.

snow pack is a key source that is being lost, abstractions compete with fisheries / agric

I have enough probs to solve here first so should stop bleating on a fave topic, but I know industry colleagues in BC & alberta are aware + cringe at the Per Capita Consumption compared to other countries

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

I am glad we pulled out of Kyoto. I would have had a fit if we sent one cent to some BS ponzi scheme. Sorry, but Kyoto is not about saving the planet, or if it is it is designed by idiots. Any supposed treaty or protocol without the biggest emitters signing on is a joke. If it is total parts per million in the atmosphere and then to give China a free pass? that is a joke. It is a joke of a deal to try and make it binding for some and not others. Chretien was a fool to sign it and then do nothing.

So then the argument comes,...."Well, if you add up the number of people in a country, then divide it by the c02 emissions (or vice versa) Canada's is high, so we should let China and India and Brazil keep polluting at a rate many times as fast as the west as ever done in order for the math to match up, so that everyone gets to pollute equally, and thus save the planet".

Yeah, lets scrap the oil sands and start shipping more of it in to North America from Saudi Arabia who today decapitated a women for practicing witch craft, or maybe comrade Chavez in Venezuela, or perhaps we can make arrangements with the enlightened government of Iran, or perhaps some of the prince's of the Arabian peninsula, or maybe the Nigerians and Angolans will be kind enough. Or maybe we can build an underwater pipeline from Russia, similar to the land based natural gas pipelines from Russia to Europe, or maybe the Brits and Norwegians will send us some from the north sea, I hear that deep water drilling is a nice, clean, environmentally safe way to extract oil, BP seems to think so. Whatever the result, we should not be producing it ourselves cause it is dirty and unethical and will destroy the planet.

But whatever, you guys keep ordering in food and cheese from halfway round the world, it will go well with your morale superiority discussions about cradles.

FFS

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

I thought you'd be along soon.

FFS.

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

cheese, sir?

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

No thanks. I've had more than enough from you already.

FFS

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

Why can't Canada set a good example like a responsible developed country? Sure, China and India are huge polluters, much more so than Canada. But using that as an excuse for Canada to sit around doing nothing is a bit childish!

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

Very good point. It's down to Western nations to show leadership here since it's the West who have taken the world to the brink in the interests of removing its own population from poverty over the past 150 years (or trying to...). If we want China and India who, frankly, have it in their powers to take the world past the tipping point to take this seriously then it's important for countries like Canada to take this seriously.

This is a purely self-interested and politically motivated decision. I think this fact alone makes Canada look really stupid on the global stage. Everyone can see it for what it is. :thumbdown:

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

When its minus 30C and with the wind chill a balmy minus 45C I think the last thing Canadians are thinking about is Kyoto and the carbon footprint.

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

I don't think it's the weather they care about, it's keeping gas to under $1.25.

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

Let's be honest Canada is insignificant. It doesn't really matter what it does.

I'm just amazed that this insignificant place received such coverage for a change.

It make's no difference if Canada is involved than say Guatemala.

The UN needs to sit down and broker an environmental deal with the world's biggest economies and it's time this tosh of Canada being a G7 country was laid to rest.

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

That's G8 these days. Talking of which, the Kyoto Protocol (negotiated in 1997 this month exactly 14 years ago) only became a Treaty when it was ratified by Russia on Feb 16th 2005, the exact same day that Canada's Parliament ratified it.

Although Vader chooses to accuse Chretien of this dire act of international responsibility, it was actually Martin who was PM at that date.

However, the first minority Harper regime was elected on Jan 23rd 2006, so that was that.

Canada is the only Annex 1 country who ratified the Treaty who's failed to even get close to it's (binding) commitment and now the only country in the world (Annex 1 or otherwise) who's reneged on ratification.

Ashamed? We should all be.

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

James, it is significant because the fact that its exit is seen as legal, and that India and China only have "voluntary" commitments, means that others may just simply say forget it. However, I think you're right that a new deal needs to be brokered. Kyoto is out of date.

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

Agreed. It was supposed to run for 15 years, ending next year. It hasn't failed though. Everyone else who agreed to cuts has more or less done it (although I realize part of that has to do with collapsing economies rather than positive action). Canada is the only exception.

I don't think anyone here would claim that they anticipated in 1997 the exponential growth in the economies (and emissions) of China, India, Brazil etc., or that any would claim to have anticipated the financial meltdown in 1997/8 in the US, UK and so on.

Which only makes it more ludicrous and embarrassing that Canada would renege on its Treaty commitments days after all these countries (including Canada) had agreed to negotiate new, legally binding commitments at Durban to follow up on Kyoto.

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

I notice TwoJags was on the CBC earlier giving Canada the benefit of his advice. It's alright John - with climate change the harvests in the Champagne region will be even more bountiful.

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

Yeah, saw that. I'm sure if he ate/farted less, Canada's own inflated emissions could be offset.

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

Eff off. And goodnight.

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

It was Chretien who signed the thing in the first place, then the left who ratified it how many years later, 7 or 8?

Not too much in the way of planet saving was going on with this agreement. Assuming that many of you have driven across large parts of Canada and Europe, possibly Japan and Eastern China, it doesn't take a genius to see that "developed" has different meanings. Beijing and Shanghai and the other parts of Eastern China are still developing, while Manitoba, Nunavut and Newfoundland are already developed places? It was foolish for countries like Canada and Australia to fall into this Western Europe trap game because of a label. Canada and Australia are not part of Europe and do not have a compact population like Japan and other old world "developed" countries.
Call me back when the "developing" countries are on board. Or maybe we can use C02 emissions per square kilometer instead as a measure of development. I am sure we would be kicking ass and taking names if that was the case.

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

I really don't know as much as I should about this issue so I am happy to be educated.

In finance we are warned not to be influenced by sunk costs. We need to complete a project and have two options X and Y. Option X will cost $100m to complete and option Y $75m. It is irrelevant that we have already spent $200m developing option X from concept to ready to build. That money is gone. We have to look forward from today. Option Y is the best value and is to be preferred.

I heard an interview with the South African High Commissioner in Ottawa. She made two arguments:

* That Canada was part of the developed West and should pay a penance for pollution to date.

* That all non-western countries have a right to develop rich economies like the West and anything that would hinder this (such as controls on pollution that the West historically did not have) is immoral.

In isolation these both seem to be supportable concepts. However, I understand the problem is that too much CO2 is being put into the atmosphere and the only way to slow down global warming is to slow down the rate of increase in CO2 emissions then reverse it.

I don't see how either of these propositions brings us nearer to a solution.

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

I'm putting myself on the fence here, but I will throw this in for fun:

I have no evidence to back this up, but I heard the soundbite on the news awhile back:

The Icelandic Volcano that went pop the other year grounding flights for a while threw more environmentally damaging crap and nasties into the air than humans could manage in many decades (if not longer - can't remember).

If you're worrying about fossil fuels running out then our consumption has to be managed, but if you're worrying about environmental damage, is there anything we can do that really makes a difference when mother nature's actions are added to the equation?

Enjoy.

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

whether it is true or not, using natural events as an excuse to do nothing is a childlike rationale ;)

in planning there are things we cannot control - like volcanos, therefore for the plans must take those into account and ensure the things that can be controlled accomodate the background level of natural events (good or bad).
you can be sure the models take into account natural carbon sinks (sea, moors etc).

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

Careful, making observations such as this will have you labelled as a frothing loon or something similar by the "clever ones" on this site. :p

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

Don't you mean "Self proclaimed clever ones"? ;)

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

Well I consider myself to be just the average Joe so what would I know about this subject?
Just reading these 2 and a half pages and probably more to follow I wonder if all this talk is just a futile effort to appear to say to the masses we are concerned and we will try to work something out but in the end little or nothing gets done.
We can talk about reducing this and that, banning this and that etc etc but in the end is it all talk?
Whats the point of implementing this that or the other when this happens

http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/st...er-report.html

As from Canadas perspective can we alone change thing or does it have to be every country willing to change with no exceptions.
We have been yakking about this for 15 years under both a Liberal or PC regime and yet what have they achieved?
Should we vote in the NDP or Green Party (sorry Bloc supporters you dont count as you only run in Quebec) to see if they can change things.

Talk is cheap, but positive and achievable plans are priceless.

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

Ah .....Cliche'

"Kinda like put your money where your gob is"

" walk the walk, and talk the talk"

et al

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

I wouldnt say that. Poorly served by self interested politicians, undereducated with respect to the effect climate change will have on future generations perhaps. They just seem to have different priorities.

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

Me? Frothing Loon?

Only on Wednesdays :)

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

There is a good opinion column, by Duane Brett, in today's Calgary Herald.
Unfortunately, I am unable to link it to the thread. It is worth a read if you have the time to search it out.

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

<stunned>

He's called Bratt and, once again, there's a picture. The picture suggests that he's been responsible for more food miles than the population of China.

http://www.calgaryherald.com/opinion...757/story.html