Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

The Bratt piece is bold in its dishonesty. He is:

"is chair and associate professor in the department of policy studies at Mount Royal University."

He clucks:

"Unfortunately, while there has been plenty of public debate on global warming in Canada and in other countries, much of that discussion has focused on political-economic dimensions instead of scientific basis. The debaters tended to be political scientists, economists, or industry and environmental spokespeople."

apparently disqualifying himself from further comment.

Nonetheless he ploughs on:

"None of the above situations constitute a scientific debate on anthropogenic global warming. Although real climate scientists debate global warming, it has usually been done at closed academic conferences and venues that excluded the public. Public debates by climate scientists were rare."

Plainly untrue. Anyone can buy a copy of Nature.

Instead of all this fussy academic debate he suggests we consult the Frontier Centre for Public Policy. Well, knock me down with a feather, that's an oil industry advocacy group!


Aint they got no ethics at Mount Royal University?

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

just to lighten the mood a little - forget Kyoto it's the gay penguins in Toronto Zoo that I feel sorry for - just what is this country doing to itself!!!!
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...ol?INTCMP=SRCH

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

There are a number of things I've seen happen over the years. Initially after some scientists stated that climate change was happening, they were labelled as crazy hippies by those with an interest in keeping things the way they are. When the scientific evidence mounted up in favour of climate change existing, then the debate shifted from 'scientific facts' to speculation such as 'is it man-made?' or the outright skullduggery of 'discredit the messenger'

Also, those promoting climage change as real and man-made are primarily scientists and environmentalists; whilst those with the opposing views are politicians, special interest groups, and the kind of broscientists that frequent internet forums (it was the volcano that did it guvnor!). Who do you trust more?

Which leads me onto speculating about volcanoes. This is all very well, but really it's just that - speculation. The only way to prove or disprove this hypothesis is research, and this is something that many people don't want carried out because they don't think they'll like the answers they get.

(but really, there's no point having this debate because people with lots of money want to keep things as they are and people accept this because they are conditioned into thinking tomorrow will be the same as today. It's the same reason we had the financial crisis - those predicting it were seen as nuts at the time by the mainstream)

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

There is no solution other than everyone agreeing to live a pre industrial revolution lifestyle which clearly won't happen. Whatever preparations can be made at reasonable cost to deal with the consequences of any increasing temperature are worth making. Reducing dependancy on fossil fuels to minimise the increasing leverage that suppliers will have over purchasers in the future is also worth doing. However is there any point in closing down western industry only for the same industry to expand in India, China etc - I doubt that.

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

Climate change good for farmers in Britain. Oh hang on maybe the Met Office is funded by Exxon?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/env...et-Office.html

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

Eloquence from the Trudeau..........

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/no-fuddle-d...201130259.html

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

I read this and though here we go into the “warming” debate.

But the reality is that at a governmental level Canada only works for votes, how could we expect a government that is shallow enough to run and fund an asbestos mine, give one iota about the environment and its future. Throw in the failing 1st nation reserve system, what Canada does well is hide its problems, it doesn’t attempt to solve them it just hopes they go away.

Canada may have a postive enviromental image, but that's all it is, an Image

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

Does it? From a tourism view point canada has beautiful images of snow capped mountains, polar bear tours and lakes surrounded by fall colours, but from an environmental view point Canada is tar sand, strip mining, seal culls and now the Kyoto business.

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

This makes sense.

I know it is probably only one small part of the overall debate, but the interview I heard seemed more about a global redistribution of wealth, resources and opportunities than any care about the future of the planet.

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

Yep... remind me of taking a detor off the main highway on one of the cross Canada trips

From pristine view's of lakes and trees and snow capped mountians, its a short drive to industrial clear cuts and muddy logging roads..

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

How short of a drive?

Perhaps Google could assist you with a demonstration of the distance between lakes, trees and snow capped mountains and industrial clear cuts and muddy logging roads.

Is Canada the only country where such can be found?

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

All of which, of course, is the fault of the Harper Government. Is that how the argument goes?

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

It endemic of the Canadian government over many parties..

Both the conservatives and liberal are guilty, turning a blind eye is something Canadians in general seem to be good at, be it crime, poverty, environment, etc
I’d suggest out of sight, out of mind seems to fit a lot of the problems in this country

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

1. about 5kms

2. Depends where I chosse to look, in some places we coudl be 1000kms, in others and matter of meters,

3. Not the only one, but as major timber exporter, one of the worst ones outside of south america

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

So you don't want Canadians to log nor, I assume, to extract oil. I also assume ditto for salmon fishing and cattle farming. In light of the way that farmers use pesticides and other nasty things, I assume that arable farming is also out.

How are Canadians supposed to feed themselves and make money in your world?

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

Look what happened to the liberals when they did made an effort with the "Green Shift":eek:. Handed their areses by the electorate. No mainsteam canadian party is going to travel that path again in a hurry.

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

If you, in your capacity as a thinking and concerned human being, are waiting for global political will to change that which you can see with your very own eyes, then you will be in fo a very long wait indeed.

Instead of bemoaning Canadian politicoes withdrawing from Kyoto, or wailing that Big Oil is destroying a forest that you can't get to, ask yourself... what are YOU as a person doing about it?

Look around you... big detached house in a country that's either too hot or too cold? Vehicle with worse fuel economy than you would have in, say, the UK? How many flights have you been on this year?

Perhaps politicians aren't hypocrites... maybe they really do represent the real disinterested attitudes of their constituents...?

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

Personally the ones I am in business with use their brains to figure out how to add value to lumps of metal and ceramic and then sell them at a profit to other people who need them to keep airplanes in the air...

Its called "manufacturing" I believe, but its rather out of fashion at the moment.

As for agriculture, they could always try doing it on a smaller scale, more locally to the end user, and live with a lower yield.. its money that drives high yield industrial agriculture. As a nation of the obese we could consider consuming less too;)

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

The reality is that its not what people as individuals do that will make a difference, the vast majority of man made emmisions are industrial, and that will only be addressed when legislation makes it economically worthwhile for them to change.

Sure, individuals should do what they can, both in terms of personal consumption and in smart ethical investment to prevent them financially supporting the worst industrial offenders but government action on a global scale is imperative if there is to be any hope of a real reduction in greenhouse emissions.

Personally I think its now too late to effect the necessary political change of will, and that my childrens children will be living in a much less stable world as a result.

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

christ, give your head a shake.

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

In his world the food and electricity fairy looks after everyone.

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

And, pray tell, what keeps these airplanes in the sky? Perhaps they are working on a big rubber band to launch them into the air! Besides, aren't jet planes supposed to be one of the biggest damagers of the climate?

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

These are the sorts that blow things up on the ground to. What can I say, its steady business. Doesnt need to be aircraft at all though, the point is that mindlessly exploiting natural resources is not the only way to make ends meet.

The reality of the electricity fairy is that humans have been on earth, plodding away, for several million years. Consumer goods, electricity and internal combustion engines cant even claim several hundred years, a fraction of a blink of an eye in planetary terms. Humans dont need them, but we dont seem to be able to consider a world without them now either. The planet doesnt care, it will be here long after we are just part of the fossil record.

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

Guilty conscience? ;)

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

No, I'm just not a hypocrite.

I don't, on the one hand, complain about the nasty oil companies making dirty oil, and then, on the other hand, drive to Timmies in a Suburban on the way to the mall to buy the latest must-have, made in China, electronic shite.

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

The problem with global warming is it'll no doubt make Canada more desirable for potential immigrants and that'll upset Dave.

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

Well, on another thread, there's an immigrant who's upset because there's no snow, so perhaps it'll all even out.

In the future, the immigrants who want snow will have to go to places like Dubai, where they make it in the desert for fun, and which is ultimately paid for by people who drive to Timmies in a Suburban on the way to the mall to buy the latest, must-have, made in China, electronic shite.

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

To be honest clear cutting isn’t accepted good practice anymore.

There are two major forestry accreditation bodies in North America the FSC and SFI, the global standard that is being encouraged by industry is FSC which discourages clear cutting, and both are working to reduce it.. So logging can be done, I don’t think we should stop, I do think we should stop using outdated methods that are considerd bad for the environment, and for what it worth bad for forestry long term, but then as you know it’s no surprise to me that Canada is behind the times and in things like this often found to be closer to third world methods than first.

For FSC certified products you need go no further than Home depot for wood, your envelopes from you bank, the packaging from Unilever, Nestle and more the world is moving forward, if Canada want to get left behind , it's not that the public wouldn’t buy it, But that share holder care, many companies want to ensure their stock can be traded on the ethical markets and get on the Dow Jones sustainability index, nobody wants a green peace protest on their door step like mattel got (see Asia Pacific Paper mattel) it's bad for business and stock value

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

I confess to not being a scientist and really am too ignorant to comment but I think George Carlin makes some valid points:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtrT5oG_IVc

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

Namely?

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

As I say, I am not qualified to comment and maybe neither is George Carlin but I find his stance quite interesting. The fact, for example, that the world has been around for a lot longer than us and although we might have been on the world for the past 200,000 years, we have only been involved in heavy industry for the past 200 or so and is it therefore possible for man-made damage to have been done in these last 200 years. My uneducated opinion is that the earth is cyclical and constantly warms and cools and perhaps too much weight has been put on man-made global warming and not enough on the natural course of events. I feel that this might have been influenced politically, if that is the case, it is wrong. Now, at the same time, as an individual, I am all for re-cycling and re-using where possible and the idea of re-usable energy resources is very appealing but this is not because I am necessarily and advocate to the idea of man-made global warming, I simply think it is a good thing to do. For all I know, you might be a qualified scientist and can counter everything I say with some scientific fact but I just find it odd that for millions of years, the earth has been spewing so much into the atmosphere through volcanoes and fires (I mean, let's face it, people have been making fires for cooking and heating nearly as long as they have lived on the planet), that to say we might have permanently damaged the world through thoughtless industry simply over the past 200 years, just doesn't ring true to me. But then, I am so very humble.

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

yes the earth is old, yes as lump of rock it will survive - it does not mean that we will enjoy the life available

however for those areas already suffering droughts & floods these are predicted to get more frequent & worse

more cost (food increases in cost as crops fail), more disruption - floods, fires, droughts (which cripple manufacturing as water so critical) etc impacts from extreme events already impacting the UK economy & personally I would rather we worked to not increase them

in the extremes more famine, more disease, more death - I suppose if that doesn't impact Canada, then that is may be why they are rejecting Kyoto

it would be interesting to see what more frequent droughts could do to the prairies though - I would suppose someone has some info on that

I see that Russia is joining Canada:frown:

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

What George Carlin has said and in many respects I agree, is that we humans are arrogant enough to think that we caused the global warming. We might have contributed a little but let's face it, it is something that has been going on for millions of years and will continue whether humans live on the earth or not. I am sorry but I cannot believe that humans have been responsible for what is going on in the world and politics should stop suggesting we are.

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

You are aware that hes a comedian, not an environmental scientist, right?:blink:

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

I am very sorry too & hope you can find some more informed material to help you understand that humans do very much have an impact for what is going on in the world & always have had - just sometimes we manage to correct it (clean air act, environmental legislation)

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

Having a funny Einstein avatar hardly makes him a comedian.

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

Carlin's point was that we are more caught up with the Earth serving our needs and how changes to the Earth (coastline, weather patterns) will affect humans and our lifestyle and habitat rather than about the health of the actual planet. The Earth doesn't care about coastline or where it rains, people do. The planet will rejuvenate at it's leisure if we all died of tommorrow or in 100 years.

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

Yes and very succinctly put. I have already admitted that I am ignorant and not a scientist but I am aware that looking after what we have and re-using where we can is important not only to the economy but the environment. If we really want to "help" the planet then perhaps we should stop all manufacturing, we should stop using the computers we are using, or living in the houses that we build or eat the processed food we eat or stop driving the cars we drive...oh the list goes on and would it ever be possible in this day and age. I mean, we couldn't even go back 50 years without complaint so to go back a few hundred thousand is probably going to be impossible.

Re: Canada & Kyoto
 

Actually he's a comedic legend in his own mind and in his own home.