Re: Bin Laden dead
 

saw this on Facebook...

Re: Bin Laden dead
 

Not many are going to be unhappy that he was killed, or even say that he didn't deserve it. He did deserve it, but that's not the same as being happy that our governments behave in this way.

Ultimately this is just another sign that the west is less democratic now than it was before 9/11. Extra-judicial killings, detention without trial etc; these are not things that so-called western liberal democracies should be engaged in. The state is increasingly getting more and more such powers over us, the power to commit crimes or remove our freedom in the name of "security". This trend is not a good thing.

If you actually like democracy, you should not be happy about the methods used to assassinate bin laden, even if the outcome matches your political outlook.

Re: Bin Laden dead
 

The only legal way they could've got Bin Laden to trial was to send the Pakistani police around to arrest him. They probably would've missed him, lost him or forgot to look under the bed.

Then they would of had to extradite him. How many months would Pakistani law have taken to do that?

Then a very lengthy court trial where ever. He is not a head of state or a dictator of a country so would it be the Hague?

We would've sat through months of an expensive phoney trial where he had no chance of ever proving his innocenece and then what? He sit's in a rediculously expensive security facility for the rest of his life with groups constantly protesting for his release and events carried out in his name.

Easier to just exterminate him.

Re: Bin Laden dead
 

They gave Goring a trial and he ordered the killing of far more people than bin Laden. And the bombing of Guernica wasn't a war act if you were going argue that one.

Re: Bin Laden dead
 

Democracy is great until they realise it's not effective in certain situations. Then what?

Re: Bin Laden dead
 

Probably easier to stick a bullet in peter sutcliffes head too. Why stop there, it's probably easier to kill loads of people - what about bradley manning?

The state shouldn't be murdering people because it's easier or cheaper than the democratic alternative.

Re: Bin Laden dead
 

This where we all come a bit of a cropper. Define and operationalize democracy.

Re: Bin Laden dead
 

Tricky. Although I reckon that it is necessary for a democracy to be governed by a set of laws that applies equally to all regardless of who they are.

Re: Bin Laden dead
 

Pretty effective if you ask me. The people of the United States elected a president who eliminated a man saving them hundred's of thousands of dollars in legal fees and protection costs.

The majority of people seem delighted to me.

The electorate has spoken and all that.

Re: Bin Laden dead
 

The problem is, when a nation states that purports to some sort of shinning-city-on-the-hill in regards to democratic values, seems to pick and choose at their convenience when those set of laws should and should not apply, even when they've written them down in a document.

Re: Bin Laden dead
 

*opens new window and search's wikipedia*

Re: Bin Laden dead
 

Did this occur on US soil? Did he ever subject himself to US law (I say US for the sake of space, I appreciate that International Law may have something to say about it)? Thought not. That being the case, I guess we can accept that he got what was appropriate when one engages in Jihad.

Woud it have been more acceptable to you if he had shot back at those that did the shooting?

We will see if s/he wot ordered the operation is ever put on trial. If not, one must assume that s/he complied with the law of the US. Just as we have to accept that every accused that is acquited is innocent of the crime they were accused of - no?

Re: Bin Laden dead
 

I suppose it depends if you look at this situation as an act taken during a legitimate war.

No one would have been upset had a crack SAS brigage taken out Hitler or Goering, after all in a war they would be legitimate targets to hasten the end of hostilities.

Is the "War Against Terror" so very different? Its clearly not "nation against nation", but both sides announced their intentions some time ago. Just hard to declare war in a legal way when there is such an informal enemy.

Re: Bin Laden dead
 

As I said above, one assumes that there are enough care bears in the US to take some sort of action against those that breached their rules. Can you please supply a document that you allege was breached?

Re: Bin Laden dead
 

What, like Nixon:sneaky: Clearly he broke the law as president, but was never tried...

Re: Bin Laden dead
 

The SAS hadn't been formed when WWII was taking place, if my regimental history serves me correct.

Re: Bin Laden dead
 

It does apply equally to all that are part of their election process. Bin Laden was not- infact his sole aim was to destroy their ideology through any means necessary.............

Re: Bin Laden dead
 

Lots of people break the law and are never tried; it is only Presidents that are exempt from the operation of the law? I thought the President that followed him "pardoned" him.

Re: Bin Laden dead
 

1941, SBS was 40. not that it matters to the point I was making.

Re: Bin Laden dead
 

The fifth and sixth amendments to the US constitution.

Re: Bin Laden dead
 

So using that logic Timothy Mcveigh shouldn't have had a trail?

Re: Bin Laden dead
 

Well, I guess you are happy for governments to murder people or lock them up forever without any trials.

Re: Bin Laden dead
 

So he could in fact have broken the law, even if he's not actually tried and found guilty then?:confused:

Thats not what you said here.. "We will see if s/he wot ordered the operation is ever put on trial. If not, one must assume that s/he complied with the law of the US."

Anyone know if the US is actually and in a legally binding way, "at war" with certain terrorist organisations and their personnel? There must be some sort of process to follow I imagine.

Re: Bin Laden dead
 

They are not. There has been no official declaration of war (which requires a vote from congress I believe - Bush never did this, and neither has Obama)

Re: Bin Laden dead
 

Who is Timothy Mcveigh?

Re: Bin Laden dead
 

Somebody who's "sole aim was to destroy their ideology through any means necessary."

Re: Bin Laden dead
 

Fifth amendment:
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger;

No harm, no foul.



Those that are arguing in favour of OBL being brought to trial seriously need ther heads feeling. You really dont live in the real world....:thumbdown:

Re: Bin Laden dead
 

Yes, the real world where our governments murder people or lock them up without trial. Anybody who thinks this is good is at best extremely naive and at worst a moron who believes everything the state tells them.

Edit: I'm not actually sure what your point is. Your quoted fifth amendment actually indicates that US law says he should be brought to trial.

Re: Bin Laden dead
 

Not generally, but when an adversary states that they will do all in their power to kill and maim members of a State, yes.

I take it that you do not agree with what I have just written above.

Re: Bin Laden dead
 

So where do you draw the line when it comes to taking people out then?

OBL... OK

Other less well known terrorists?

"Elected" leaders like Ghadaffi?

Kim Il Jong?

Mass Murderers

People you dont like

People with opposing political views

etc

Its a slippery slope, and one that should have a legal "safety fence" at the top. If the US had declared war on OBL and his organisation then there would be a lot less hand wringing. Its the grey areas that are the problem. On one hand the US has acted as if 9/11 and subsequent events were a declaration of war, but on the other it has also pursued it as a criminal offence, with regular investigations and trials. The laws were never really framed to deal with a mass murder by a non nation state in mind I guess.

Re: Bin Laden dead
 

Please explain, in language that a simpleton like me will understand, how this applies to the death of a non US citizen, within the jurisdiction of another country, in combat?

Re: Bin Laden dead
 

There are always those that are quick to criticize the actions of others without stating what they'd have done in the same circumstances.

Pray tell Alan, if it was you in charge, what would you have done?

Re: Bin Laden dead
 

You missed the bit where they go on about "without due process of law."

Re: Bin Laden dead
 

What planet are you on? Lots of people are convicted and are then pardoned. Nixon wasn't convicted.

Are you suggesting that the law of the US that provides convicted felons with a pardon does not apply to Presidents?

Re: Bin Laden dead
 

No. Just because the evidence is "obvious" in OBL's case, doesn't mean that extra-judicial killing should be allowed. What about OBL family? What about bradley manning? What about the gitmo detainee's? The list goes on ...

Re: Bin Laden dead
 

I'd have told them to bring him in alive if possible. And it would have been, he was unarmed ffs.

Re: Bin Laden dead
 

Why was it OK? Because you said so? Your hypocrisy is astounding.

Typical Liberal: You are wrong unless you agree with me.

Re: Bin Laden dead
 

The bottom line is there are two opinions, while we all agree that bin Laden was a bit of a ***t, its just some people don’t mind their governing representatives running around murdering people for expediency, others do mind.

Re: Bin Laden dead
 

I was just wondering why you thought someone could only be described as having broken the law if they were put on trial and convicted. But you seem to agree that it happens all the time now anyway, so thats OK.


It might be considered by some that under the circumstances it may have been illegal for Obama to order people to fly into a sovereign nation, pop a couple of caps into someone and remove the body.

Im not saying it was wrong mind, but really the legal justification should / could be a lot better established.

Re: Bin Laden dead
 

Each case on it's merits. Nothing is black and white.
What is also a slippery slope is allowing mass murders/terrorists to inflict further atrocities on innocent people without fear of retribution. I'm yet to hear anyone provide a viable alternative.

Let's say he was taken in and arrested.
How soon do you think it would have been before we saw "western" people being kidnapped and beheaded in retaliation? I can see it right now. "We will execute one person every hour until Osama is released".
That wouldnt look too good would it?