Best dog breeds for Rocky Mountain hikes
Aug 12th 2009, 4:52 pm
#136
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Re: Best dog breeds for Rocky Mountain hikes
In my view the case for neutering dogs (and cats) doesn't rest upon a perception that it reduces aggression though I believe that to be true. The case is simply that there are too many dogs (and cats) in the world, more can be created without live cover (the sire of one of our dogs was long dead before she was conceived) and so there's no need to have reproductively capable male dogs. No good can come of it (other than it possibly being aesthetically pleasing to behold a dog's bollocks).
Aug 12th 2009, 4:56 pm
#137
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Re: Best dog breeds for Rocky Mountain hikes
Two different issues somehow lumped in to one.....
Docking and neutering are NOT equivalent!
Aggressive dogs exist due mainly to poor ownership. Yes, there are breeds which are more predisposed to aggression than others. These need better ownership! There are dogs with mental problems, just as there are humans. In the case of these dogs (I cannot speak with authority about the humans), neutering is right and proper, primarily to avoid passing that tendency on within the breed. The aggression itself should never be allowed to become to a problem to anyone except the owner.
Regular dog behaviour, as opposed to aggression, does involve posturing to display or attain a high position within the pack. If this is ever pointed at humans, the owner has a problem. For dogs to have little scraps (NOT anything with produces serious damage to another dog) is actually quite normal. The same goes for the occasional hump, both behaviours being more common in the dog equivalent of teenagers (surprise...). A dog of that age, typically one to three years, is not often a candidate for breeding anyway. By the time the dog is a candidate, he'll have calmed down anyway, so why mutilate him???
Now, docking... Yes, this has often been done for cosmetic purposes, including to match the breed standard and for no other reason. However, in certain breeds it is done with very good reason as long as they're working dogs. Spaniels are the obvious example, and they truly love to get into thick cover, regardless of thorns and barbs, when following a good smell. An undocked dog risks serious injury, and subsequent infection, to the tail. It certainly shouldn't, in my view, be a necessity in any breed standard. Dogs should be shown without penalty if they aren't docked, and if they are docked it's not unreasonable to expect the owner/breeder to demonstrate that the dog either works or was reasonable expected to become a working dog at the time of docking.
Docking and neutering are NOT equivalent!
Aggressive dogs exist due mainly to poor ownership. Yes, there are breeds which are more predisposed to aggression than others. These need better ownership! There are dogs with mental problems, just as there are humans. In the case of these dogs (I cannot speak with authority about the humans), neutering is right and proper, primarily to avoid passing that tendency on within the breed. The aggression itself should never be allowed to become to a problem to anyone except the owner.
Regular dog behaviour, as opposed to aggression, does involve posturing to display or attain a high position within the pack. If this is ever pointed at humans, the owner has a problem. For dogs to have little scraps (NOT anything with produces serious damage to another dog) is actually quite normal. The same goes for the occasional hump, both behaviours being more common in the dog equivalent of teenagers (surprise...). A dog of that age, typically one to three years, is not often a candidate for breeding anyway. By the time the dog is a candidate, he'll have calmed down anyway, so why mutilate him???
Now, docking... Yes, this has often been done for cosmetic purposes, including to match the breed standard and for no other reason. However, in certain breeds it is done with very good reason as long as they're working dogs. Spaniels are the obvious example, and they truly love to get into thick cover, regardless of thorns and barbs, when following a good smell. An undocked dog risks serious injury, and subsequent infection, to the tail. It certainly shouldn't, in my view, be a necessity in any breed standard. Dogs should be shown without penalty if they aren't docked, and if they are docked it's not unreasonable to expect the owner/breeder to demonstrate that the dog either works or was reasonable expected to become a working dog at the time of docking.
These moral questions are all so tricky.... but where domesticated animals are concerned I think we humans have the moral prerogative to be kind and compassionate. My former husband (African-born) was pretty hardline about soppiness towards animals in a world which stands by while so much cruely is dispensed towards humans.... my argument was that a civilised society that prohibits cruelty to humans also prevents cruelty to animals.
Aug 12th 2009, 4:59 pm
#138
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Re: Best dog breeds for Rocky Mountain hikes
Yes. Isn't reducing an animal's aggression and removing an itch than can never be adequately scratched compassionate? Isn't reducing the number of uncared for strays kind?
Aug 12th 2009, 6:18 pm
#139
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Re: Best dog breeds for Rocky Mountain hikes
The consensus seems to be that health benefits of the surgery include reduced chance of prostate and testicular cancer.
Aug 12th 2009, 6:24 pm
#140
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Aug 12th 2009, 6:29 pm
#141
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Re: Best dog breeds for Rocky Mountain hikes
I'm all for reducing the number of strays and unwanted pups. Given that there will always be intact dogs, both domestic and feral, the onus (and please, please don't draw any analogies with human rights and responsibilities!) is on the owners of b*tches - the * is to avoid unnecessary moderating incidentally. When in heat, they simply have to be kept away from unwanted attention.
My personal view, and I certainly can't prevent anyone from disagreeing, is that however wonderful crossbreeds can be, there are already far too many of them (look in any shelter or pound...) so of course there's no good cause to leave them intact. Especially if they are neutered before maturity, they won't know what they're missing anyway.
Many pedigree dogs are hardly in short supply - I doubt anyone has any trouble finding a lab pup for example. The sad fact is that the vast majority of labs and goldens are not really worth breeding from. They get bred to suit the huge demand for them, at puppy mills and even at some home-based, small-scale breeders who know they can sell every puppy. Those which really won't make the grade are sold as "pet quality", as if there is something intrinsically substandard about being a beloved pet! Reputable breeders will generally sell dogs on condition that they have the final say on future breedings, and they will usually specify when dogs are not to be bred from at all.
None of the above is to excuse the worst excesses of the breeding/dog show world. I'm a fan of gundogs (sporting dogs in Canada and the USA, for show purposes), and a fan of working pedigrees. Breeders of working dogs worry a whole lot more about temperament and ability than about looks. That's a large part of the attraction of flatcoats - the lines have not split between show and working strains. Show labs on the other hand, are often huge (especially in North America) and would be utterly incapable of a full day's work in the field.
So......pedigree dog which is likely to be bred from; keep the nuts. Once the dog is too old to breed, let him keep them - you won't change him now anyway!
Pedigree dog purely as pet; lop them off unless the dog really has breeding potential. Just don't prescribe neutering as a catch-all; we still need quality dogs!
Mutts; wonderful as many are, you just don't have any idea what you'll get from a breeding, and in any case there are already millions of unwanted dogs in shelters and pounds around the world. Lop 'em off.
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Newshoney - I can see your former husband's point of view, though I happen to find it difficult not to see my dog as part of the family! He is just too happy, funny, affectionate and, quite frankly, nuts, to be anything but. We call him our idiot son, though he's actually very intelligent.... However, far too many people (going back to about page 2 of this thread) treat their dogs as "little people" which they most certainly aren't.
I really don't know why it is we find cruelty to animals somehow harder to face than cruelty to humans. I know intellectually (and spiritually in the Christian sense) that our obligation to our fellow humans is greater, but then we domesticate animals and they trust us implicitly. We owe them a dept of care in large part because we have made them trust us. Many of them, we've also made attractive to suit our own purposes.
When watching the news a few hours ago, a segment on the Taiwan cyclone came on. The bit that pulled on my heartstrings was the sight of a wet, bedraggled cat in some rubble. Really, we should feel the same, or more, when we see humans in distress.
My personal view, and I certainly can't prevent anyone from disagreeing, is that however wonderful crossbreeds can be, there are already far too many of them (look in any shelter or pound...) so of course there's no good cause to leave them intact. Especially if they are neutered before maturity, they won't know what they're missing anyway.
Many pedigree dogs are hardly in short supply - I doubt anyone has any trouble finding a lab pup for example. The sad fact is that the vast majority of labs and goldens are not really worth breeding from. They get bred to suit the huge demand for them, at puppy mills and even at some home-based, small-scale breeders who know they can sell every puppy. Those which really won't make the grade are sold as "pet quality", as if there is something intrinsically substandard about being a beloved pet! Reputable breeders will generally sell dogs on condition that they have the final say on future breedings, and they will usually specify when dogs are not to be bred from at all.
None of the above is to excuse the worst excesses of the breeding/dog show world. I'm a fan of gundogs (sporting dogs in Canada and the USA, for show purposes), and a fan of working pedigrees. Breeders of working dogs worry a whole lot more about temperament and ability than about looks. That's a large part of the attraction of flatcoats - the lines have not split between show and working strains. Show labs on the other hand, are often huge (especially in North America) and would be utterly incapable of a full day's work in the field.
So......pedigree dog which is likely to be bred from; keep the nuts. Once the dog is too old to breed, let him keep them - you won't change him now anyway!
Pedigree dog purely as pet; lop them off unless the dog really has breeding potential. Just don't prescribe neutering as a catch-all; we still need quality dogs!
Mutts; wonderful as many are, you just don't have any idea what you'll get from a breeding, and in any case there are already millions of unwanted dogs in shelters and pounds around the world. Lop 'em off.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newshoney - I can see your former husband's point of view, though I happen to find it difficult not to see my dog as part of the family! He is just too happy, funny, affectionate and, quite frankly, nuts, to be anything but. We call him our idiot son, though he's actually very intelligent.... However, far too many people (going back to about page 2 of this thread) treat their dogs as "little people" which they most certainly aren't.
I really don't know why it is we find cruelty to animals somehow harder to face than cruelty to humans. I know intellectually (and spiritually in the Christian sense) that our obligation to our fellow humans is greater, but then we domesticate animals and they trust us implicitly. We owe them a dept of care in large part because we have made them trust us. Many of them, we've also made attractive to suit our own purposes.
When watching the news a few hours ago, a segment on the Taiwan cyclone came on. The bit that pulled on my heartstrings was the sight of a wet, bedraggled cat in some rubble. Really, we should feel the same, or more, when we see humans in distress.
Aug 12th 2009, 6:34 pm
#142
Assimilated Pauper
Joined: Mar 2005
Location: Ontario
Posts: 40,018
Re: Best dog breeds for Rocky Mountain hikes
I'm all for reducing the number of strays and unwanted pups. Given that there will always be intact dogs, both domestic and feral, the onus (and please, please don't draw any analogies with human rights and responsibilities!) is on the owners of b*tches - the * is to avoid unnecessary moderating incidentally. When in heat, they simply have to be kept away from unwanted attention.
My personal view, and I certainly can't prevent anyone from disagreeing, is that however wonderful crossbreeds can be, there are already far too many of them (look in any shelter or pound...) so of course there's no good cause to leave them intact. Especially if they are neutered before maturity, they won't know what they're missing anyway.
Many pedigree dogs are hardly in short supply - I doubt anyone has any trouble finding a lab pup for example. The sad fact is that the vast majority of labs and goldens are not really worth breeding from. They get bred to suit the huge demand for them, at puppy mills and even at some home-based, small-scale breeders who know they can sell every puppy. Those which really won't make the grade are sold as "pet quality", as if there is something intrinsically substandard about being a beloved pet! Reputable breeders will generally sell dogs on condition that they have the final say on future breedings, and they will usually specify when dogs are not to be bred from at all.
None of the above is to excuse the worst excesses of the breeding/dog show world. I'm a fan of gundogs (sporting dogs in Canada and the USA, for show purposes), and a fan of working pedigrees. Breeders of working dogs worry a whole lot more about temperament and ability than about looks. That's a large part of the attraction of flatcoats - the lines have not split between show and working strains. Show labs on the other hand, are often huge (especially in North America) and would be utterly incapable of a full day's work in the field.
So......pedigree dog which is likely to be bred from; keep the nuts. Once the dog is too old to breed, let him keep them - you won't change him now anyway!
Pedigree dog purely as pet; lop them off unless the dog really has breeding potential. Just don't prescribe neutering as a catch-all; we still need quality dogs!
Mutts; wonderful as many are, you just don't have any idea what you'll get from a breeding, and in any case there are already millions of unwanted dogs in shelters and pounds around the world. Lop 'em off.
My personal view, and I certainly can't prevent anyone from disagreeing, is that however wonderful crossbreeds can be, there are already far too many of them (look in any shelter or pound...) so of course there's no good cause to leave them intact. Especially if they are neutered before maturity, they won't know what they're missing anyway.
Many pedigree dogs are hardly in short supply - I doubt anyone has any trouble finding a lab pup for example. The sad fact is that the vast majority of labs and goldens are not really worth breeding from. They get bred to suit the huge demand for them, at puppy mills and even at some home-based, small-scale breeders who know they can sell every puppy. Those which really won't make the grade are sold as "pet quality", as if there is something intrinsically substandard about being a beloved pet! Reputable breeders will generally sell dogs on condition that they have the final say on future breedings, and they will usually specify when dogs are not to be bred from at all.
None of the above is to excuse the worst excesses of the breeding/dog show world. I'm a fan of gundogs (sporting dogs in Canada and the USA, for show purposes), and a fan of working pedigrees. Breeders of working dogs worry a whole lot more about temperament and ability than about looks. That's a large part of the attraction of flatcoats - the lines have not split between show and working strains. Show labs on the other hand, are often huge (especially in North America) and would be utterly incapable of a full day's work in the field.
So......pedigree dog which is likely to be bred from; keep the nuts. Once the dog is too old to breed, let him keep them - you won't change him now anyway!
Pedigree dog purely as pet; lop them off unless the dog really has breeding potential. Just don't prescribe neutering as a catch-all; we still need quality dogs!
Mutts; wonderful as many are, you just don't have any idea what you'll get from a breeding, and in any case there are already millions of unwanted dogs in shelters and pounds around the world. Lop 'em off.
Aug 12th 2009, 6:35 pm
#143
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Re: Best dog breeds for Rocky Mountain hikes
@Claybuster...
Kindred spirit... (or as they say in The Wire: "I feel yo")
@dbd33
The mind boggles
Kindred spirit... (or as they say in The Wire: "I feel yo")
@dbd33
The mind boggles
Aug 13th 2009, 12:21 pm
#144
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Joined: Feb 2009
Location: Glasgow, scotland
Posts: 78
Re: Best dog breeds for Rocky Mountain hikes
ok sorry - I didn't mean to cause a big debate about neutering, maybe i didn't come across as i could have.
All i meant was if you have a mixed pack then you either have to have all dogs neutered regardless of sex or one of the sexes neutered or have the facilities to be able to separate the different sexes during the time of a season (which can last up to 3 weeks in most breeds) to stop unwanted pregnancies.
I'm all for neutering cats/dogs etc, my 2 rescue dogs are both neutered and the girl before i got her was nearly bred to death by a puppy farmer so I have seen the effects unneutered dogs in the wrong hands suffer. I also happen to be the Scottish co-ordinator for the Siberian Husky Welfare Association (UK) where all dogs regardless of Kennel Club status are neutered before they are rehomed
But I also believe that it is the owner of the animals who are responsible for making the choice of wheter or not they get their animal done or not - some can be sensible some are not - in an ideal world all "pets" who are not shown, worked or of breeding quality would all be done, but then we don't live in an ideal world
We live in the type of world where people buy/obtain a pup/dog can't afford to or can't be bothered to get it neutered and so many months down the line figure out it's pregnant and while in labour they tie it up to a tree and walk away to never look back and get on with their lives
True story - http://www.thisisthewestcountry.co.u...abour/?ref=rss
All i meant was if you have a mixed pack then you either have to have all dogs neutered regardless of sex or one of the sexes neutered or have the facilities to be able to separate the different sexes during the time of a season (which can last up to 3 weeks in most breeds) to stop unwanted pregnancies.
I'm all for neutering cats/dogs etc, my 2 rescue dogs are both neutered and the girl before i got her was nearly bred to death by a puppy farmer so I have seen the effects unneutered dogs in the wrong hands suffer. I also happen to be the Scottish co-ordinator for the Siberian Husky Welfare Association (UK) where all dogs regardless of Kennel Club status are neutered before they are rehomed
But I also believe that it is the owner of the animals who are responsible for making the choice of wheter or not they get their animal done or not - some can be sensible some are not - in an ideal world all "pets" who are not shown, worked or of breeding quality would all be done, but then we don't live in an ideal world
We live in the type of world where people buy/obtain a pup/dog can't afford to or can't be bothered to get it neutered and so many months down the line figure out it's pregnant and while in labour they tie it up to a tree and walk away to never look back and get on with their lives
True story - http://www.thisisthewestcountry.co.u...abour/?ref=rss
Aug 13th 2009, 9:01 pm
#145
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Re: Best dog breeds for Rocky Mountain hikes
I kept my longhaired German Shepherd bitch intact initially.... until the day she was caught in heat by some undesirable mongrel upon which I whipped her straight to the vet's for spaying. I'm not hardline about neutering, was just bantering with dbd....
Thanks to everyone for all the advice, pix of animals and so on.... we're staying open minded, so we may still adopt a rescue dog if young and malleable enough... but the consensus now is that we'll aim for a labrador/golden retriever.
Thanks to everyone for all the advice, pix of animals and so on.... we're staying open minded, so we may still adopt a rescue dog if young and malleable enough... but the consensus now is that we'll aim for a labrador/golden retriever.
