scrubbedexpat142

Butting in from Hungary!

Signing of each page of a contract - we do that here - and I like it, it helps maintain the secure authenticity of the contract and (hopefully) encourages people to read & understand the contract. The English way is, in my opinion, the lazy & sloppy approach.

I did, initially, find the bureaucracy here somewhat onerous but now have come to appreciate the thoroughness and care that it entails - & "computer says no" is not a syndrome I have come across here!

C.2s

Hmm... you make some interesting points. But I am not sure that I agree totally.

For example, when we bought our house there were all the professionals present (Estate Agent, Geometra, Notary, Lawyer, etc) , and they'd all read and signed the documents and we're bursting to go to the bar and celebrate the sale with prosecco (yes, really). I couldn't speak Italian, but even I could see that the documents said nothing about the garden of the house, so I said "What about the garden?"....cue much confusion and then we all decided to come back in two weeks and do it all again.

And I have lots of other examples. So I don't think that attention to detail is a caring point of Italian bureaucracy. But I realise that could be the case in Hungary.

I think that basically people are people, but it's possible that different cultural attitudes prevail.

Personally, I usually read the small print. I'm sure people find me really annoying! But that's kinda my point. Ive watched people just signing every page and not reading it. I don't think either 'habit' is more 'advanced' or 'backward', it's the concept that it's not possible to change a habit that is backward (as in it looks back to the past not the future)

philat98

All this bureaucracy comes at a price. We bought a small piece of land and the lawyer's fee was more than purchase price.

C.2s

And it's more time consuming/off-putting.

Example:

I'm currently subscribing to two non-competitive, 'fun' cycling events. One in Germany. One in Italy.

German process:find very obvious button on website and click it, fill in online form with your name, address and date of birth, tick the box to indicate your choice of route (but you can change that on the day), clicking 'send' automatically indicates you have read and accept the rules. Complete payment online via PayPal. Receive email immediately confirming your subscription.

Italian process: read big warning notice about all the things that are not permitted (stupid stuff like you must not break the law of the land during the event...as if you could somehow blame the organisers if you did break the law!) and long poetic description of the beautiful fatigue of sport in an attempt to find out how to register, eventually discover you can download pdf to print and complete , it must be signed by hand, make sure you put all sorts of additional irrelevant information like your place of birth and your tax code, don't forget to add the number of the association that you are subscribed to, what Ente they are registered with, and your own personal registration number (and if you dont have that you need to register for day membership of the organisers association and pay extra), next send a bank transfer to their bank (which being an Italian process is also more complicated than PayPal, I can't do it through my phone app), get a copy of that bank transfer (a screenshot or similar), then send the completed form and proof of payment to the organiser by email (or fax...lol!) .... don't forget to send a copy of your medical certificate that you have obtained by completing a in-depth medical with a doctor that is recognized by the FCI (Italian cycling federation) and who follows the state laws about what specific medical certificate is required for which sport (because you obviously can't use the one you have for marathon running or triathlon for a cycling event) ...then wait for a while...you might get an email or some form of response... but don't be surprised or worry too much if you don't.

I rest my case. ;-)

Tbf the German event is three times the cost of the Italian one...

Moses2013

Germany is hardly free from bureaucracy and having lived there with family still there, you might have just been lucky😉. I work in IT and most of our customers are based in Germany and it's hard to believe how backward they are with technology and processes.

philat98

I worked for a short time in Germany. The thing that impressed me was a beer dispenser in the office. When I arrived in Italy the beer dispenser had changed into an ice cream machine.

Moses2013

Oh yeah, they used to have them everywhere and I remember visiting Deutsche Post and they had vending machines with beer. I still remember when McDonald's served beer in most of their restaurants but that seems to have disappeared although reading somewhere Italy still sells, is that true?

modicasa

I think nobody reads the bank contracts because they are skewed so in favour of the banks, its pointless. If you want a bank account you have to submit to their dominion.
For your garden C.2s, thats just your agent and geometra being useless. AS regards attention to detail, I think its the opposite. They'll take five minutes to make sure two pages are perfectly aligned before they get stapled. But as to content, well its the Italian principle of ignorance is no defence. Its not up to jobsworth to know the content, just the procedure, and assure it makes their job look very very important! I agree about the faxes though. They still sell them in unieuro here, it must be the only country left in the world that chooses a fax - though I was told that the Italian love affair with faxes was more from stopping the authorities knowing what you did - the older version of whatsapp encryption I guess.

Plan B

Ah, would that life were so simple.

daniel_t

Driving licence is another one. There goes the Italian way: a visit to the optician's, another visit to your GP, an appointment with a 'doctor' at the local agency of Italy's National Health Service, a trip to the local branch of the Department for Transport (or Ministry of Transport and Infrastructure as the Italians call it), and you'll probably get your licence in the next century.

I don't think I'll ever understand their logic. Imagine you had to take a test - maybe they will teach you how to drive dangerously (joke).

C.2s

Absolutely Modicasa. I could have given similar examples of experience of house buying and selling in the UK. It was Expatric from Hungary who suggested that the extra paperwork was a sign of more attention to detail.
I think we're basically saying the same thing Modicasa. For me, the habit of signing every page, lining up documents before stapling, insisting on all sorts of various documents,etc is all superficial...it doesn't necessarily make any difference to the content. And yes, every country has bureaucracy, but you are absolutely right about the motivation for a lot of it in Italy is to make their job seem "very very important"

daniel_t

Speaking of digital identification - the Italian equivalent of SPID or German PostIdent

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...t-brexit-laws/

'The bill will also make it easier and quicker for people to verify their identity online as people will now be able to create certified digital identities that make verification easier.'

C.2s

SPIDs or their equivalent aren't exactly highly advanced concepts. The UK Government Gateway was launched in 2001 (I think it's been replaced now by something with a similar name) and the Italian SPID in 2014. Whether one particular system functions better than another, or whether the technology is slightly more advanced, the concept is effectively the same.

I'd suggest looking at the way that websites are used to communicate tells us more about the mindset. The technology is more or less the same. Italy's not backwards in that respect. But the content reveals different priorities.

​​​​My wife's been looking at Danish and Swedish websites today as she's researching where to visit when we go there on holiday, and she's so happy because the websites are up to date and give you all the info that you might want to know (as a potential visitor) in multiple languages. Danish and Swedish places use their websites to attract visitors.

The majority of Italian websites (if you can find a website) will tell you about an event that took place (but no idea about future events), what some academic wrote about the place, which Italian department paid for a renovation in 1973, what law allows the place to be open to the public, what the covid rules were in 2021, what pope lived there in the middle ages , and what the local 'typical' pasta dish is - usually in Italian and very poorly translated English... But no reliable info that you actually might want. They exist because someone has the idea that a website is a must, but nobody seems to know for what purpose 😁

philat98

The Meloni government wants to move away from the SPID and replace it with the electronic ID card (Cie) despite substantial government spending. The problem with the Cie is that you need a smart card reader. Around 35million Italians are currently using the SPID so it has very widespread use. A lot more than the UK systems I suspect.
The EU is working on a system that will allow Europe wide digital identity.
https://commission.europa.eu/strateg...al-identity_it

Plan B

Oh so very true!