philat98

The Telegraph says that Italy is the most backward country in Europe. The government is banning ChatGpt, English and cultured meat.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...ritain-second/

Pica

Right on!!!

philat98

I cannot see a problem with cultured meat as long as it is not sold as normal meat. Italy cannot stop ChatGpt. Italians are using a lot of English words already. France has tried the same thing without much success. I suspect these are just populist policies that will go down well with Meloni supporters.

Listen Very Carefully

The article also says that the UK is a close second.What links the two is both have a populist right wing government that not capable so is using "culture wars" to deflect from their incompetence.

C.2s

When I first heard about this I thought all three of these stores (banning English, ChatGPT and lab produced food) were April Fool's Day jokes...

I do agree that this is probably just a populist govt bashing easy targets that appeal to it's conservative, nationalist support base. And it's similar to what the Tories are doing in the UK. So it's probably more of a distraction tactic as opposed to anything concrete.

It's kinda strange that this is in the Telegraph, given that's also a right wing paper, but then the Telegraph is also broadly anti-regulation , pro free trade... and that's the complete opposite of the Italian love of legislation...so in a way this story really shows the difference between the Italian right and the UK right.

Oh and the headline (that Italy is "backward") is all about stirring controversy. In the same way that Italian politicians attack 'foreign' stuff, the Telegraph says this sort of thing because it's also an easy target ... and sells newspapers.

We probably shouldn't take any of it seriously

philat98

I think the laws have been proposed but not yet implemented. In the case of meat (carne coltivata) the proposal is to prohibit the manufacturing in Italy but allow the import from other EU countries. It could be a great opportunity for the UK food business.
The business editor of the Telegraph is a keen supporter of Meloni and Salvini.

daniel_t

That's an opinion column, but I personally find it extremely hard to disagree with the author. Honestly, it would be unrealistic to expect most Italians to embrace deregulation or cherish individual liberty in the way us Brits do. Their way of thinking is heavily influenced by Civil Law and so everything has to be painstakingly codified. It's a completely different logic to our Common Law, which is used in the UK and Commonwealth countries.

When I first moved here a decade ago, it really felt like going back to the 1960s - and I'm talking about big cities like Milan. We were, and still are, decades ahead of Italy in our banking system, institutions, consumer choices, Internet, and the list goes on.

According to recent OCED reports (since 2019), the average skills level of Italy's workforce is at the lowest among G7 countries. In terms of the problem-solving skills of school leavers who have had their education in Italy, the average 18-year-old person was as skilled as a 14-year-old who is at school in the Netherlands or 15-year-old in the UK. A recent European Commission report (2020 or 2021?) also found that Italy was the third most corrupt country within the EU, followed by Romania and Bulgaria. I really don't think Italy is a country that rewards people who are hard-working, intelligent and just.

But I must also say it is a fair country if people want to enjoy a more relaxed lifestyle. It has a rich cultural heritage thanks to the favourable conditions created by Austrian (the Hapsburgs), French (the Bourbons) and Spanish royal houses. I've learnt to become flexible in my life - there are many different ways of reaching the same goal.

Sorry if what I've written isn't music to your ears. I think we've got to accept that not every country is as advanced as the UK. I might be wrong, but I think there is a shock factor because, given Italy's post-war alignment, most people live under the illusion that this country has been fully westernised and modernised.

Again, feel free to disagree with me.

philat98

I haven't noticed that Italians are poor problem solvers or have a low education level as the OECD claims. I worked with Italians in the UK and they were generally very competent. Private shop keepers here are usually very knowledgeable about their products and will quickly provide solutions to practical problems. I suspect there is a lack of opportunity for young people particularly in the south.

modicasa

I think its a lot of tosh. 'Cherishing individual liberty' - I would suggest that Italy is way ahead of the UK on that one. All Italians do exactly what they like. And it's not true that the UK is years ahead of Italy. Italy has PEC and SPID and electronic carte d'identita. In fact its the only G7 country with a certified email system. Only Switzerland and Hong Kong have similar systems. The country is ahead of the UK for FTTH - just two examples. For the British who never had the napoleonic code it seems alien that a country is so regulated, but it was imposed to guarantee rights, and negate some of the horrors of the Spanish and Austrian "invaders". If you talk to secondary school pupils here they have a much broader education than comparable British students. The statistics on FE are a little biased because university here is open to all, and not on a closed number system as in the UK, except in medicine. The Italian banking system is certainly behind others as regards customer service, but that is due to a protectionist closed shop approach rather than being backward. The Italians invented banking, and they have always been very good at making money out of it.
The problems come from government not from society, and it is successive governments which stimie growth, not the Italians themselves who are resourceful and born businessmen. As to why governments are locked in 1960s ideological politics can be argued endlessly, but politics in Italy (as now in the UK) has never been seen as a vocation but as a way of advancement and personal enrichment, so the will to change other peoples lives for the better comes far down the list of things to do.
I have lived here for over 20 years and it is true that when I arrived it seemed like going back in time - but now I look at the UK and it is such a deeply unpleasant place to be that even with organised crime and bureaucratic nightmares (both of which Britain has), the Telegraph article just seems the latest in a long line of bashing other countries to distract attention of the omnishambles at home.
The judicial system, however, is a farce which needs a radical overhaul and GB beats Italy hands down on that one.

daniel_t

You've certainly made good points there about the differences in educational systems. Italy has definitely caught up with the rest of the world on fibre broadband, but I must point out that they were miles behind back in 2013 - I still remember their ADSL marketing at that time when most places in the UK already had the equivalent of FTTC back in 2007.

With all due respect, PEC might be a clever system to some people - but we really need to ask why it has only been adopted by so few countries. ID cards and digital systems like SPID in the UK? Thanks, but no thanks.

But I agree with you that the Telegraph article, as well as the recent quasi-fascist draft legislation in Italy, is a distraction tactic. The author was right though when he warned that the UK would risk becoming like Italy. I should hope not!

modicasa

Its going off point here, but I have never understood the British antipathy to ID cards. The Brits are monitored by CCTV as much as the Chinese; the government knows exactly what you do even if covertly, so the fear that having an ID card could somehow impinge on your liberty is, to me, laughable. A SPID is an excellent idea, it allows you to access securely public admin without the fear of identity theft etc. It's not obligatory but is a huge time saver.

Geordieborn

You have to live in a country to even start to comprehend the "pros & cons". Coming back to live in the UK from living in Italy has been an eye opener for us, that's been on the good and bad side. Come on Modi we are not "monitored" here in the UK, we simply have many CCTVs (and now even more "ring" door bells", dash cams and the like). Technology is always a bad area to compare countries as one or the other can learn and improve on others mistakes. People here laugh at my preferred use of email as it's almost dead, fibre will likely die soon, if not with5g, then 6g. But the UK (like many countries) is in a mess at the moment, or seems to be to people living here, but who knows what is around the corner and I remain positive.

philat98

The case of Nicola Bulley showed how much monitoring there is in the UK. A rural location in NW England packed with CCTV. Blair and Hague are keen on ID cards for the UK. ID cards might reveal the extent of illegal working in the UK as Macron has pointed out.

C.2s

I wouldn't say that my (Anglo-Saxon) way of thinking is more "advanced" and the Italian way more "backward"... they're just different.

But it's worth trying to understand that difference before one moves to Italy, because a lot of Brits do find it exasperating. It's not really about the technical capability of Italy or the intelligence/problem solving abilities of Italians. It's about the culture. It's a bit like the way that you have to sign every page of a contract here. I find that incredibly frustrating. For Italians it's normal. So of course my Italian bank loves the fact that now you no longer have to physically sign each page, instead there's a piece of technology that allow to create a digital signature on each page. But I think why not just sign once at the end of the contract and have a clause inserted that says that you've read it all? I don't really see any "progress" through this technology.

I guess the idea of an Italian way of life ( the dulce vita) is something that's attractive to most Brits and it would be a shame if that disappeared completely. If you look at the three examples mentioned in the original article they all have a sort of subtext which is about protecting that Italian culture. That's something both the current Italian and British governments want to be seen to be doing. It's arguable whether anything they do actually makes any difference; I think King Cnut probably had more success holding back the tides, than the conservative right wing have of holding back globalisation. In that sense, there are forces in both countries are trying to look backwards and protect a past way of life.

P.S. The point that was made above about creative, open minded Italians living in the UK is moot. Surely by definition the ones that have moved abroad are the outward looking, proactive, internationally minded ones, and therefore aren't really representative of the community as a whole

modicasa

Geordieborn - I agree you arent monitored, unless of course, they decide to monitor you. That, I suspect, is the same the world over. When Blair tried to introduce a voluntary ID card there was an outcry, but nobody ever managed to explain why they were against them. It just wasnt 'British'.
To go back to the original point - the FdI 'policy groups/fringe nutters' who proposed the ban on English terms is the equivalent of some of the Rees Mogg adoring cliques who pop up every now and again with some ludicrous idea. The Chat GPT ban is in the high court next week and will be surely overturned. The meat question is really the same as the GM foods problem, in Italy it is not allowed to grow GM foods, but they can be imported in cattle feed, and other products.
Italy wants to keep the integrity of its foods, and, as with products made of insects, such foods must be sold on separate shelves and clearly marked - then the consumer can choose what they want to buy without having to spend an eternity trying to read labels.