I have just got the attestato di soggiorno. I couldn't find my permesso and I needed to do the residency thing because we moved house. Although I had a photocopy of the original AND the comune had all the details on the computer they still made me apply for it. I'm sure that the fact you have to pay for it had nothing to do with their eagerness. They did tell me that after I have been officially here for five years - next year for me - then I can stay indefinately.

I did have to prove that I could support myself. Which in my case required a letter from my OH and and a letter from his employer explaining his payslips which are in English. My ASL card (healthcare) expires in March next year and to be honest I'm not sure if it will be simple or possible to renew it.

I do know people who have never completed their residency and they get along okay although it can be more difficult for them. I know of one small comune where you cannot use the rubbish tip unless you can prove residency, and where we live you can get a discount card for petrol if you have residency.

Health cards had exactly the same expirary date as the old permesso di soggiorno..... mine always did and also some other EU folk I know here.

Once you have been granted indefinate stay then you just go to the ULSS office with your copy and your old health card and it should not be a problem or problematic to get a new one ........ though it might take a little time for the new plastic "credit card" type ones to come through.

When my permesso runs out I too will have to apply for new permamnent residency and I will still have to prove my position here ..... either with a letter from an employer or with a signature from Max becasue I can use the kids as my reason for being here.

All my previous permessos had "work" stated on them. This time I can use "family".

I think that ASL is getting stricter. I need to look into it more, but because we are not Italian and OH pays tax in the UK not here and we are not married they might not renew me. I'll look into it more after the New Year.

As in a lot of things, each case could well be different.

I am not married either but my kids were born here to an Italian father so that gives me certain advantages. My paperwork still states that I am here for work and supporting myself but that will have to get changed when it runs out but I know I can use the kids now - although Max will still have to state that he is now supporting me.

I understand the reaons why but the rules do make you feel a little bit like a "kept woman"

Well both my friends who are English and married to Italian's have had to prove that their husband's can support them for them to get the ASL renewed. They have been told having kids isn't enough - the kids will get it but not necessarily you. BUT, as you, Lorna, have been here well over 5 years why not just get your residency sorted out and that should put an end to it.

My residency is sorted - it has been for as long as I have had a permesso di soggiorno and well before meeeting Max or having kids.

It has always been for work purposes though and I no longer am employed. When my actual paperwork runs out I just have to go to the comune and get the permanent soggiorno but as I no longer have my own wage packet then Max will have to sign for me saying that as the mother of his kids I am part of his "stato di famiglia" and as such am supported by him.

That should be it for me. Hope nothing changes in the meantime - unless of course it changes for the better. My actual stuff doesn't run out until 2010. I got my last permesso in 2000 and it was stamped for 10 years.

And even if I have to go to the comune a few times it is only 5 minutes away. The Questura was 25 km away !!

Talking of PS's

I'm still searching for mine have turned the house upside down. The problem being the last time I had it the photo had come unstuck and I remember sticking it back on and putting it in a book.

Our house has a gigantic book case with maybe 2,000 books so its a little problem I need step ladders to get to the top.

! Look in one of your Berlu or Mussolini biographies!

You could always do what I did. Admit to the comune that you have lost it and get the replacement version. The thirty euros may be worth the hassle of going through all your books.

If you wish to comply with Italian law you MUST inform the police of your presence here if you are here for more that 7 days. Your codice fiscale is, in point of fact, your tax code - your entry into the Italian system - whether you like it or not.
If you wish to have health care beyond the simple provisions extended to a tourist from another EU member state - holding a EHIC issued by your own country - you MUST hold residency.
If you are not "in compliance" with the requirements of everyone either living or staying in Italy, you are breaking Italian law. This simple act means that you are liable to the penalties associated with the crime you are committing - jail, in other words.
Remember that ignorance of the law is no defence under Italian law. If you are breaking the law, even if you are wholly ignorant of that law, you are liable to pay the penalty of breaking it. In the case of not having the legal paperwork to live here in Italy, it is jail. Simple, really.
Without wishing to make you even more angry with me, I suggest that you regularise your position in Italy very quickly indeed. For your own self-protection.
If you are living in Italy, you MUST comply and respect the laws of Italy. To try to avoid your responsibilities or evade the law is neither big nor clever. It is rude and ignorant and is not something that should be condoned or encouraged.

Nardini - when I first arrived in Italy I rang the Questura to ask what to do. I was told to go away and come back after 3 months, they don't want EU nationals checking after 7 days - this no longer applies to us. Neither do you buy a pack from the post office for a PdiS - this no longer applies. I am not angry with you as such - it is that you are giving misinformation. I can only assume you have been here quite some time and had to do all the things you suggest. Now you go to the Anagrafe, which I did some time ago, and you deal direct with them.

True - you can even download the form to fill out here :

http://www.poliziadistato.it/pds/ps/...e_anagrafe.pdf

That's because this law, Decreto Legislativo 6 febbraio 2007, n. 30 states that any EU citizen can stay here up to 3 months without any conditions or formalities (as long as you have valid ID - like a passport).

1. I cittadini dell'Unione hanno il diritto di soggiornare nel territorio nazionale per un periodo non superiore a tre mesi senza alcuna condizione o formalità , salvo il possesso di un documento d'identità valido per l'espatrio secondo la legislazione dello Stato di cui hanno la cittadinanza.

The codice fiscale is not just a tax code.

It is a personal identification code for government bodies, public administeries etc.

This is why even children have one. I didn't go and ask for one for my kids. It was automatically sent to our house soon after they were born.

Your codice fiscale is also printed on your plastic health card (for those of us who have a tessera sanitaria).

If anybody has ever tried to use a cigarette machine you'll know that you now have to pass your card over it to prove your age. Your codice fiscale contains the year you were born in.

It's really not fair to put such wrong information on a widely read forum.
A lot of people here or that might soon be here look to this forum for help and information.

Most of what you wrote is just wrong and I hope my last two posts will make you realise this and let any other person know the new requisites and norms for living here.

A failure to comply with these norms is of course not a good idea but it does NOT mean that you get sent to prison. You simply get kicked out of Italy.

Article 21 of the above mentioned law clearly states that if you are no longer in a position to fulfill the conditions determining your stay then you will be asked to leave.
Art. 21.
Allontanamento per cessazione delle condizioni che determinano il diritto di soggiorno.

The same article also states that you are not forbidden from ever coming back.
There is not one single mention of prison at all.

The time for being thrown to the lions in the Colosseo is long gone.