Avoiding Paperwork
 

I'm a little awed at all the paperwork people have to suffer to live in Italy.

My question is: is it possible to live in Italy without going through any of it? I could drive a car that in theory belongs to someone else and maintain that I'm just on a long holiday if ever asked.

I live as a freelancer and so don't need to work in italy and am happy to pay for private medical care or go back to the uk when needed.

Is this plan feasible?

Re: Avoiding Paperwork
 

Yes, but don't tell anyone...... Also there will eventually be tax implications, so bear that in mind too.

Re: Avoiding Paperwork
 

Without wasting too much breath: no.

Sorry about that and all, but if you chose to break the law in Italy, you stand a very good chance of getting caught - unless you are planning on living under a railway arch or in a cardboard box, say. Either live in Italy honestly or simply stay in England, is my best advice. There are just too many potential points where you could (and would) get caught. A car accident would expose your intended fraud. In fact, any immediate health problem, such as a broken limb or an illness. You won't be able to buy anything substantial either - especially not a house - or rent/hire anything. Really, the paperwork is a problem if you go into things with your eyes shut and with a "little englander" mentality. Otherwise it is just how things are here - if you don't like it, the best plan is to stay away from it.

Re: Avoiding Paperwork
 

That just isn't true! You need a codice fiscale which is really simple to get with your passport. This allows you to buy a phone, rent a house, etc. You can open a non-residents bank account which will then allow you to pay bills, have sky tv etc. With the car, I wouldn't advise driving a friends, I admit - I would either rent one as you need it or use public transport. But you can buy a brand new car without residency anyway. As an EU citizen you have the right to freedom of movement within Italy. To get residency you need health insurance etc. which is doable but you also have to consider how long you are planning on staying here. Plus, as I say, you will have tax implications at some point if you don't pay here or in the UK. I'm going to assume you were keeping a UK address etc and paying tax there. This you can do.

Re: Avoiding Paperwork
 

You can actually drive anybody's car in Italy if it has multi-driver insurance cover. Insurance is different here. Most of it is only 3rd party and it does not cover you the driver or the car. It covers your passengers - another car, its drivers and passengers.

Anybody can drive my car but if they crash it into a wall the insurance won't pay. The insurance will cover damages to another car and passengers.

If I crash my own car into a boulder the insurance will not cover it.

Fully comp is expensive here and I don't personally know anybody that has it.

My OH and I can drive each other's cars anytime and our names are not specified on each other's policies.

I'm not saying that everyone ought to just jump into and start driving any old car but insurance is different here.

Most of you must have seen banged, knocked and scraped cars here. That's because the owners can't afford to or can't be bothered to have the panels knocked back into shape and because insurance most likely does not cover damages to their own car.

Re: Avoiding Paperwork
 

I actually agree with Nardini.

Why bother coming to live here and stay without proper papers?? Okay its a hassle but most of us has been in the queue at the Questura for hours etc etc.

It actually depends where you intend to live, if like me you want to live in a small village you would be found out in about a weeks time.

I actually agree about an accident or an emergency trip to hospital you need to produce documents or if your property is broken into etc the list is endless its always documents documents documents.

You may very well get away with it but why must you always be looking over your shoulder.

Re: Avoiding Paperwork
 

What then would people consider to be the minimum necessary?

I gather that the permesso di soggiorno is no longer necessary but there exists something similar that requires registration at the anagrafe within 3 months. Is is necessary to show health insurance for this or proof of funds?

But getting a car requires residency it seems which if i understand correctly means you're supposed to pay income tax in italy?

If i were to buy a car though with an italian friend and it was offiicially in their name i would be saved the need for residency. Would such a scenario compromise them in any way?

Re: Avoiding Paperwork
 

Why is it so important to you to avoid the necessary???

Re: Avoiding Paperwork
 

Ours is complicated because of my OH not actually being a "resident" here for most of the time, and is why we haven't completed the process. I'm honestly not sure where he is resident for tax purposes!! We need to get it sorted though as I do want residency so I can have a doctor etc.

But if you don't want residency because you want to "avoid" tax then at some point you will come unstuck hugely with one of the countries you "reside" in. You might be better travelling back to the UK for the required time - more than 50% of 183 days I think, including your days of travel now, I think?

IG the process has simplified a lot but in many ways there are more obstacles like proof of income, health insurance required before residency etc. They had to simplify as making EU nationals get the PdiS was against EU rules of free travel, so they have said they can have residency with lots of BUT's.

Re: Avoiding Paperwork
 

All of your questions are answered for you on the British Embassy website for Italy - just take a look.

You need a codice fiscale, which you will have to show your passport for.

You will need to apply for residency - residenza - at the local council offices - municipio. You can also buy a "pack" at the local post office, if you are so inclined.

The rules for residency include you having; a) a job in Italy, or; b) sufficient income to support yourself.

If you are employed, your payment of tax, etc. will allow you to use the Italian health service. Otherwise, you will need to have (and prove you have) private health care provisions for yourself.

If you have any other family members with you, the same rules will apply to them also.

Once you have residency granted, you can get your health card and register with a doctor. Otherwise, you are a tourist and can only use medical care facilities if your have your European Health Card - and only for 6 months from the date of your entry.

Don't forget that if your stay is for more than a couple of weeks, you must register at the police station local to you.

That is the minimum. There is not a love of foreigners that try to avoid the Italian system at the present time, so be very careful. Mi raccamando!

Finally, to TestaRossa - I hope that you too are properly registered for tax purposes and have legal residency here as the penalties are very high these days - especially, as I said before, for foreigners.

Re: Avoiding Paperwork
 

Thanks for all the advice.

Is it really necessary to become resident though?

What if i just made the (what's it called?) attestato di soggiorno, the thing that replaced the old permesso?

Re: Avoiding Paperwork
 

Think about it for a moment. Residency means that you have an address, OK? I think that should answer your question. I said earlier that the only way to avoid it would be to live under a railway arch - but, if you get caught you would go to prison first, followed by expulsion from Italy. Not worth the game, old chap!

Re: Avoiding Paperwork
 

Nardini - where do you get the idea that the only way to have an address is through residency?! What about people who buy holiday homes here? They don't give up their residency in country of origin! All you need to rent a house is a codice fiscale - some landlords actively discourage residency because of the rights this confers on their renters under Italian law. And no, you don't go to prison or get expelled!! This is rubbish, I'm sorry. You will probably get fined and that could be pretty bad, but you are not expelled - Lega Nord were stopped by Brussels recently from introducing a law to enable Italy to throw out immigrants who could not prove they were able to financially keep themselves, so you are just wrong.

Re: Avoiding Paperwork
 

Your in another country do the decent thing and play by their rules!

Re: Avoiding Paperwork
 

Thanks, Testarossa, for the intelligent response.

Re: Avoiding Paperwork
 

I have just got the attestato di soggiorno. I couldn't find my permesso and I needed to do the residency thing because we moved house. Although I had a photocopy of the original AND the comune had all the details on the computer they still made me apply for it. I'm sure that the fact you have to pay for it had nothing to do with their eagerness. They did tell me that after I have been officially here for five years - next year for me - then I can stay indefinately.

I did have to prove that I could support myself. Which in my case required a letter from my OH and and a letter from his employer explaining his payslips which are in English. My ASL card (healthcare) expires in March next year and to be honest I'm not sure if it will be simple or possible to renew it.

I do know people who have never completed their residency and they get along okay although it can be more difficult for them. I know of one small comune where you cannot use the rubbish tip unless you can prove residency, and where we live you can get a discount card for petrol if you have residency.

Re: Avoiding Paperwork
 

Health cards had exactly the same expirary date as the old permesso di soggiorno..... mine always did and also some other EU folk I know here.

Once you have been granted indefinate stay then you just go to the ULSS office with your copy and your old health card and it should not be a problem or problematic to get a new one ........ though it might take a little time for the new plastic "credit card" type ones to come through.

When my permesso runs out I too will have to apply for new permamnent residency and I will still have to prove my position here ..... either with a letter from an employer or with a signature from Max becasue I can use the kids as my reason for being here.

All my previous permessos had "work" stated on them. This time I can use "family".

Re: Avoiding Paperwork
 

I think that ASL is getting stricter. I need to look into it more, but because we are not Italian and OH pays tax in the UK not here and we are not married they might not renew me. I'll look into it more after the New Year.

Re: Avoiding Paperwork
 

As in a lot of things, each case could well be different.

I am not married either but my kids were born here to an Italian father so that gives me certain advantages. My paperwork still states that I am here for work and supporting myself but that will have to get changed when it runs out but I know I can use the kids now - although Max will still have to state that he is now supporting me.

I understand the reaons why but the rules do make you feel a little bit like a "kept woman"

Re: Avoiding Paperwork
 

Well both my friends who are English and married to Italian's have had to prove that their husband's can support them for them to get the ASL renewed. They have been told having kids isn't enough - the kids will get it but not necessarily you. BUT, as you, Lorna, have been here well over 5 years why not just get your residency sorted out and that should put an end to it.

Re: Avoiding Paperwork
 

My residency is sorted - it has been for as long as I have had a permesso di soggiorno and well before meeeting Max or having kids.

It has always been for work purposes though and I no longer am employed. When my actual paperwork runs out I just have to go to the comune and get the permanent soggiorno but as I no longer have my own wage packet then Max will have to sign for me saying that as the mother of his kids I am part of his "stato di famiglia" and as such am supported by him.

That should be it for me. Hope nothing changes in the meantime - unless of course it changes for the better. My actual stuff doesn't run out until 2010. I got my last permesso in 2000 and it was stamped for 10 years.

And even if I have to go to the comune a few times it is only 5 minutes away. The Questura was 25 km away !!

Re: Avoiding Paperwork
 

Talking of PS's

I'm still searching for mine have turned the house upside down. The problem being the last time I had it the photo had come unstuck and I remember sticking it back on and putting it in a book.

Our house has a gigantic book case with maybe 2,000 books so its a little problem I need step ladders to get to the top.

Re: Avoiding Paperwork
 

:rofl::rofl::rofl:! Look in one of your Berlu or Mussolini biographies!:thumbsup:

Re: Avoiding Paperwork
 

You could always do what I did. Admit to the comune that you have lost it and get the replacement version. The thirty euros may be worth the hassle of going through all your books.

Re: Avoiding Paperwork
 

If you wish to comply with Italian law you MUST inform the police of your presence here if you are here for more that 7 days. Your codice fiscale is, in point of fact, your tax code - your entry into the Italian system - whether you like it or not.
If you wish to have health care beyond the simple provisions extended to a tourist from another EU member state - holding a EHIC issued by your own country - you MUST hold residency.
If you are not "in compliance" with the requirements of everyone either living or staying in Italy, you are breaking Italian law. This simple act means that you are liable to the penalties associated with the crime you are committing - jail, in other words.
Remember that ignorance of the law is no defence under Italian law. If you are breaking the law, even if you are wholly ignorant of that law, you are liable to pay the penalty of breaking it. In the case of not having the legal paperwork to live here in Italy, it is jail. Simple, really.
Without wishing to make you even more angry with me, I suggest that you regularise your position in Italy very quickly indeed. For your own self-protection.
If you are living in Italy, you MUST comply and respect the laws of Italy. To try to avoid your responsibilities or evade the law is neither big nor clever. It is rude and ignorant and is not something that should be condoned or encouraged.

Re: Avoiding Paperwork
 

Nardini - when I first arrived in Italy I rang the Questura to ask what to do. I was told to go away and come back after 3 months, they don't want EU nationals checking after 7 days - this no longer applies to us. Neither do you buy a pack from the post office for a PdiS - this no longer applies. I am not angry with you as such - it is that you are giving misinformation. I can only assume you have been here quite some time and had to do all the things you suggest. Now you go to the Anagrafe, which I did some time ago, and you deal direct with them.

Re: Avoiding Paperwork
 

True - you can even download the form to fill out here :

http://www.poliziadistato.it/pds/ps/...e_anagrafe.pdf

Re: Avoiding Paperwork
 

That's because this law, Decreto Legislativo 6 febbraio 2007, n. 30 states that any EU citizen can stay here up to 3 months without any conditions or formalities (as long as you have valid ID - like a passport).

1. I cittadini dell'Unione hanno il diritto di soggiornare nel territorio nazionale per un periodo non superiore a tre mesi senza alcuna condizione o formalità , salvo il possesso di un documento d'identità valido per l'espatrio secondo la legislazione dello Stato di cui hanno la cittadinanza.

Re: Avoiding Paperwork
 

The codice fiscale is not just a tax code.

It is a personal identification code for government bodies, public administeries etc.

This is why even children have one. I didn't go and ask for one for my kids. It was automatically sent to our house soon after they were born.

Your codice fiscale is also printed on your plastic health card (for those of us who have a tessera sanitaria).

If anybody has ever tried to use a cigarette machine you'll know that you now have to pass your card over it to prove your age. Your codice fiscale contains the year you were born in.

Re: Avoiding Paperwork
 

It's really not fair to put such wrong information on a widely read forum.
A lot of people here or that might soon be here look to this forum for help and information.

Most of what you wrote is just wrong and I hope my last two posts will make you realise this and let any other person know the new requisites and norms for living here.

A failure to comply with these norms is of course not a good idea but it does NOT mean that you get sent to prison. You simply get kicked out of Italy.

Article 21 of the above mentioned law clearly states that if you are no longer in a position to fulfill the conditions determining your stay then you will be asked to leave.
Art. 21.
Allontanamento per cessazione delle condizioni che determinano il diritto di soggiorno.

The same article also states that you are not forbidden from ever coming back.
There is not one single mention of prison at all.

The time for being thrown to the lions in the Colosseo is long gone.

Re: Avoiding Paperwork
 

This is just a minefield isn't it in trying to work out what to do and when. When you are just starting out here it is so confusing because you hear that you need to do this or do that but then when you try it doesn't always work out:frown:

When our residency application was rejected last week by the Commune we were left thinking that we'd tried to do all the right things but still needed more.

Anyway two more questions - once all the paperwork has been accepted by the Commune does the residency get granted straight away or does it take a while to come through?

Re informing the police we are here - can we only do this when we get residency or do we need to do it anyway once we've been here for 3 months?

Thanks

Re: Avoiding Paperwork
 

Because of the law changes and the lack of a PdiS for EU citizens you no longer go to the police AT ALL unless you are from outside the EU. Once you have started the process with the Anagrafe you have fulfilled that requirement. The only time you will see the police is when they come to check you live where you say do for your residency to be completed. That's it! So if they come knocking on the door anytime soon I would assume you have residency!

Re: Avoiding Paperwork
 

Linda

You do NOT need to go to the police AT ALL.

Any EU member wishing to stay in Italy for longer than three months needs to go to the comune.
If you are not employed here in Italy you need to prove that you have sufficient income to support yourself and that you have health care coverage so that you will not be a burden on the Italian state.

You have already been to your comune. I hope they told you what was missing and I presume they made you fill out a form, so I presuming they know you are here, have some of your details and are just waiting for whatever it is.

Once you get your residency a comune policeman (polizia municipale) will come to your house to verify that you are actually living where you say you are. This is not just for us - they do it to Italians as well. They are usually around fairly quickly so don't be alarmed if somebody on the intercom says they are "police" or "comune".

You do not need to inform anybody else or do anything else.

Don't expect them to give you a big residency certificate or anything like that. Residency just means an official and legal registered resident of that town. You won't get anything to bring home with you.

You can though after that go back to the town hall and ask for a Carta D'Identita.

This has the comune name on it, a personal number. Your personal detials : full name - date of birth - town of birth - citizenship - address and height - colour of eyes and any "particular marks". It also has your photo and your signature.

I have one - it is handy to keep in my purse and a lot safer than going around with a passport or whatever. It is also a very well known Italian document and handy for lots of things including proof of name for picking up parcels at post office to handing in at hotels instead of passport.

Because I am not an Italian citizen though mine also has an extra stamp on the back of it saying "non valida per l'espatrio"

This just means that I cannot use it as travel document out of Italy. Italians can travel europe with theirs instead of a passport. I can't.

Re: Avoiding Paperwork
 

Thank you to you both. The commune did say what else we needed and this was a special stamp on my wedding certificate from the British Consulate in London! (I have a sneaking suspicion that even if we went all the way to London and got it, they would still want something else). I purposely didn't get any official translations or anything else in england because I read that only Italian ones would do.

I'm back to England on Saturday for Christmas so I think it will have to be a job for the new year. We were also wondering about trying the two-pronged approach of hubby applying 1st and then me later seeing as I seem to be the problem of not having a job in italy.

Re: Avoiding Paperwork
 

Unless of course we gather all our strength together and go to the Commune this week again (different day, possibly different decision):)

Re: Avoiding Paperwork
 

Linda

just do it together. You are married and the law states that any "familiare" has the same rights with the same conditions.

You might need two seperate lots of health coverage but you will both be residents at the same address. As long as hubby says that he is your provider then it should be easier to just get it done once !

d) e' familiare, come definito dall'articolo 2, che accompagna o raggiunge un cittadino dell'Unione che ha diritto di soggiornare ai sensi delle lettere a), b) o c).

Re: Avoiding Paperwork
 

here is the link to the whole lot of this decree.

http://www.parlamento.it/leggi/deleghe/07030dl.htm

Re: Avoiding Paperwork
 

and if the comune are getting shirty about you not working then DO point out part d) of article 7

Re: Avoiding Paperwork
 

right - I'm all typed out on legal stuff for the minute.
Time for a tea break.

Re: Avoiding Paperwork
 

Thanks Lorna :)