Any way to stay more than 90 days but less than 180 in one trip??
 

We are resident in Uk but owned a house in Italy for over 30 yrs. we want to stay in Italy for the summer approx 4 months in one visit to maintain the swimming pool and other maintenance can we do this without becoming resident in Italy ?Does anyone know?

Re: Any way to stay more than 90 days but less than 180 in one trip??
 

Hi,I am in the same situation.I read somewhere that Italians are allowed 180 days straight off in the UK so they might reciprocate.

Re: Any way to stay more than 90 days but less than 180 in one trip??
 

No. There is no way without getting an elective residence visa and applying for a permesso di soggiorno.

Re: Any way to stay more than 90 days but less than 180 in one trip??
 

Cheers,I know it sounds naïve and has been asked loads of times,but what is the procedure for this.We have flown under the radar for years being in bandit country,lol.We are retired so does it mean that we have to pay tax on our tax free savngs in the UK.Bearing in mind it wont be permanent cos we will probably sell up within 3 years anyway.TIA,PS don't mean to hijack thread but I'm sure the OP would be interested.Brian.

Re: Any way to stay more than 90 days but less than 180 in one trip??
 

Just hoping !!!!Thanks for reply

Re: Any way to stay more than 90 days but less than 180 in one trip??
 

Can you just apply for the permesso di soggiorno without the elective visa?

Re: Any way to stay more than 90 days but less than 180 in one trip??
 

At the moment we have no interest in doing so, but may well do so in the future. So I've not checked it out fully, but you need to start here (or your nearest) at the consulate. There are a number of rules/conditions but basically it will cost (116 Euro at least) you per year and NO you will not pay Italian tax.

Re: Any way to stay more than 90 days but less than 180 in one trip??
 

Earlier Brian mentioned that he had heard that Italians can come to UK for a straight 180 days is that correct? If so is there any indication of a reciprocal arrangement? That would be ideal for our situation otherwise I suppose we will just have to apply for permesso or totally rethink how we visit our holiday home !

Re: Any way to stay more than 90 days but less than 180 in one trip??
 

Italians and other EU citizens can come to the UK without a visa for less than 6 months. There are no indications I know of regard any EU country doing the same, but likely it would be on a country by country basis.

Re: Any way to stay more than 90 days but less than 180 in one trip??
 

To stay in Italy for more than 90 days you will need a Permesso di Soggiorno - whether this is for work, study, etc is your choice, but the most likely for homeowners would be elective residency. This means that you can stay and live in Italy until the expiry of your visa/PdS, but your tax affairs are still in your home country. You are not allowed to work in Italy in any way. Elective residency require a visa to be obtained before your arrival, and then the process of PdS started, with all that that entails. You will need to prove you have around 40.000 euros p.a for a couple, as well as health insurance etc. This is all standard for a non EU country, so its very unlikely that tehre will be a special reciprocal arrangement with the UK.

Re: Any way to stay more than 90 days but less than 180 in one trip??
 

Thanks,is that 40000 euro income pa or just savings.

Re: Any way to stay more than 90 days but less than 180 in one trip??
 

Income as I understand it, but if you have a house the value of it can be used. Have a look at this link I found using the article covering the legislation. I would suggest you look at some other search results as often these are out of date.

Re: Any way to stay more than 90 days but less than 180 in one trip??
 

Cheers,I might bypass the visa stage and apply for residency at the commune as soon as we get back.The income requirements are a lot more lenient.40 grand is a no no,lol.Our EHIC is still valid till 2023.Would they accept that instead of ASL or private healthcare.It covers falling ill and not just emergencies.My income is only £10300 at moment and my OH will be £8000 when her state pension starts in August.Our Italian property is bought and paid for at 80000 Euro.We are not married so are hoping all this will be enough,cheers,Brian.PS we have a property in UK also bought and paid for where we "winter" at the moment.

Re: Any way to stay more than 90 days but less than 180 in one trip??
 

This blog explains things quite well.
https://nancygoestoitaly.com/moving-to-italy-info/

Re: Any way to stay more than 90 days but less than 180 in one trip??
 

The blog link is very good. Think there may be a variation for USA consulates and UK, but in the main it will be the same. Not too sure it will be as easy to just go back over and get residency and that route will lead to a tax issue. I don't see the income as a problem if you have a house bought for 80,000 and either way you will need health cover, afraid an EHIC will not cut it. I'm pretty sure going forward there will be many more issues, driving etc., but most you will be able to over come... Being under the radar is fine until you come a cropper and it's always a nagging doubt.

Re: Any way to stay more than 90 days but less than 180 in one trip??
 

Brian 12-The problem you have is self made I am afraid You have been living "below" the radar so you will have no way of showing that you were here in regola prior to Dec 31 You do not appear to have submitted your tax returns as you are required to do so Have you registered at the Commune Have you been paying your local land/housing tax? If you have done none of these things then you cannot the WA attestazione from the Commune to show that you were living here permanently so you will not be able to get the biometric card from the Questura Neither will you be able to get a PDS without first showing that you are in Italy lawfully ie you now have a Visa to allow you to remain or you have the proper paperwork and correct documentation to get the biometric card
When I first moved to Italy we had a very good estate agent who played it by the book His first words to us were "You do everything correctly from the start and it will all be a piece of cake.Try and cut corners or pull dodges and it will come back to bite you Perhaps not for a few years but bite you it will" Buona fortuna

Re: Any way to stay more than 90 days but less than 180 in one trip??
 

Thank you for all the helpful info and links . Can anyone recommend a good health insurance company that would provide sufficient health cover to meet the Italian/Schengen requirements for elective residency we are both 70.?

Re: Any way to stay more than 90 days but less than 180 in one trip??
 

We are not totally under the radar.We pay IMU and the bins tax etc and have codice viscale also an Italian bank account.What I meant is that we go over the 6 months now and then.Now everything will go on the system at the borders.

Re: Any way to stay more than 90 days but less than 180 in one trip??
 

Hi Brian,
​​​​​Since the concept of "residence", as it exists in the Italian legal system for foreigners, does not exist in the UK for British citizens, the simplest course might be to change your centre of gravity: apply for permanent residence here, then you can come and go as you please.
Brexit has not made that impossible and I notice that on one important factor in the decision, health care, the question of issue of S1s after 31/12/20 has not, to my knowledge, been excluded. (Q: Anyone know of anyone who has been refused an S1 or had an S1 rejected in Italy?).
My experience leads me to believe that if you are not working or running a business the tax authority here don't chase you up; if you have a Codice Fiscale they know you exist. The difficulties you will face are the Expat perennials, to do with the car!

Re: Any way to stay more than 90 days but less than 180 in one trip??
 

Regarding S1 health insurance for Italian residents the word "may" is used. From ukinitaly it reads as if you had to be resident in 2020 to qualify.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/healthca...X18zyy-FkY4#s1

Re: Any way to stay more than 90 days but less than 180 in one trip??
 

No, I don't think so and am inclined to go with jimi. What you have found Phil seems to confirm they have no idea what applies and are awaiting clarification on a country by country bases i.e. reciprocal agreement. A mess so to speak! Until resolved I think you/we will need private health cover.

Re: Any way to stay more than 90 days but less than 180 in one trip??
 

Owning a property has no bearing on whether you have the right to residence, while it does matter if you want a PdS. If you pay IMU and TARI as a second home - then implicitly it is not your residence. TO get residence with your S1 you have to be a state pensioner. The EHIC is not enough for health insurance, so you will need another policy. Since Jan 1 the comune cannot give you residence if you have no permesso di soggiorno. Your home falls into your income if you rent it out and earn from it thereby reaching the limit necessary for the visa. If you just live in it, then it counts as the permanent address which is the requirement to get your PdS and visa. Thats the rule, how much wiggle room there is is anyone's guess.

Re: Any way to stay more than 90 days but less than 180 in one trip??
 

Hi,thanks again.According to the T&Cs of this visa it seems we have to apply for residence within 8 days anyway.It looks like an unecesary expense.We have an off road car park on our complex to hide thecar,lol.If we have to buy a runaround or drive home after 6 months so be it.Anthing is better than the 90 in 180.

Re: Any way to stay more than 90 days but less than 180 in one trip??
 

Just bumping this post as I'd like the same info,TIA.

Re: Any way to stay more than 90 days but less than 180 in one trip??
 

I suspect Brian there are no answers as the subject was covered here on the forum just recently and no one has anything to add?

Re: Any way to stay more than 90 days but less than 180 in one trip??
 

I don’t think you can avoid the 90 in 180 days restriction. Your passport will be stamped when you enter the Schengen zone and again when you leave and although no-one is likely to deport you on your way out of the country they might refuse you when you try to re-enter for your next visit on the grounds that you over-stayed previously. A bit of a risk to take.

Re: Any way to stay more than 90 days but less than 180 in one trip??
 

No worries,cheers everyone.

Re: Any way to stay more than 90 days but less than 180 in one trip??
 

The re-entry risk is a good point (and since it doesn't apply to me I have ignored it :).
The regulations are clear but, bearing in mind the unlimited right (via PdS) to remain within the Schengen area, will the stamp at the Channel continue to be enforced? I assume that if you arrive via air directly in Italy, with a "Vademecum" or whatever, your passport won't be stamped; is that a fair assumption?

Re: Any way to stay more than 90 days but less than 180 in one trip??
 

As I've indicated we do have an interest in this subject. I've assumed the PdS is the only bit you have to renew every year? Does anyone know the cost and if there is a length of time you can leave the Italy before your Elective Residency visa lapses? Ideally we would rent next in Italy for 3-6 months at a time, perhaps under Brexit there might be more places to do so! Failing that our next option was amore normal 4 year contract where we would come and go as we please, hence the questions. This bit in the blog link Phil posted worries me a little....

I've not looked at the Visa calculator link yet, but it might be useful for some of us.

Re: Any way to stay more than 90 days but less than 180 in one trip??
 

The rules on that havent changed I dont think. If you leave Italy for more than 6 months you lose your right to remain and/or residence - though there has been some leeway for Covid I hear.

Re: Any way to stay more than 90 days but less than 180 in one trip??
 

From Portugal forum.....I have asked this very question of the British Embassy in Lisbon, no reply yet.....
Also remember that if, like me, you really just want to winter in Italy (me in Portugal), say 5 months on the trot, then driving not a problem, but if you become a resident in Portugal you have 3monhs in which you can exchange your driving licence or you cannot drive at all in Portugal....but if you exchange your UK licence then you will find it impossible to insure any car you have in the UK, as you are not a UK resident (despite owning your own property there), and without a Full UK licence !!! Nightmare either way.

Re: Any way to stay more than 90 days but less than 180 in one trip??
 

OMG,another can of worms.Can anyone here elaborate on the Italian situation.It might be the EU but every country seems to have different rules on certain things.

Re: Any way to stay more than 90 days but less than 180 in one trip??
 

LOL.....not half..another thing happening in Portugal is that after applying for the exchange of licences, you are issued with a piece of paper that says that you are allowed to drive ONLY in Portugal until you get your official plastic licence and in some cases this is taking MONTHS !! And as you have to give them your original UK licence you dont even have a UK licence at all !!!

Re: Any way to stay more than 90 days but less than 180 in one trip??
 

We are still allowed to keep UK car 90 in 180 days though as long as we don't apply for residency.If that's the case we'll have to drive over twice a year and sell up everything next year.Their loss,us Brits spend fortunes in the local bars and restaurants.The locals buy 1 beer or water and use the wifi all night,lol.Had a good run for 12 years.

Re: Any way to stay more than 90 days but less than 180 in one trip??
 

Well that would work for us, but I can see where it would not for many we know. We never stayed in the UK much more than 3 months at a time let alone 6, but did come back here 3-4 times in a year. Driving would simply limit where we could rent in Italy, but we could live without a car, just as we could do in the UK. I've not looked this up, but there was talk that the UK would be much better than the EU over licences, but can't recall in what way. I've never tested this out and who knows what the future holds, but having British nationality as I understand it allows you to turn up in the UK and be resident. However I do foresee ongoing problems for those wanting to live in both places due to Brexit. We also need to get covid out of the way, then things will hopefully settle one way or the other. The latter would cause us the most concern had we still a house in Italy as I suspect travel there this year could be difficult.

Re: Any way to stay more than 90 days but less than 180 in one trip??
 

I understand ( I think ) the elective residence and dual residence whereby you are agreeing to pay your tax in the the country your inome is from in this case the UK, I have always thought that as a resident in Italy it is a requirment to submit an annual tax return regardeless of the fact you are paying tax on you income in the uk is this not correct?

Re: Any way to stay more than 90 days but less than 180 in one trip??
 

27 EU have the 90 day/180 days rule. A few months ago I read that in Portugal a Canadian couple applied for an extension of the 90 days. You may want to check out this option or perhaps apply for a visa. Info about rules to visit Italy would be on www.gov.uk website.

Re: Any way to stay more than 90 days but less than 180 in one trip??
 

I think the EU have shot themselves in the foot here.With so many expats owning homes not allowed a UK and a EU licence together.Thin end of the wedge I'm afraid.

Re: Any way to stay more than 90 days but less than 180 in one trip??
 

In what sense have the EU shot themselves in the foot? By disincentivising those that were 'flying under the radar'? Just think about that a bit ...

Re: Any way to stay more than 90 days but less than 180 in one trip??
 

It is not illegal to hold two national driving licences but to get two you have to sit the test (again) in one of the two countries; I.e. you take the Italian test rather than swop your UK licence or swop your UK licence and take the UK test next time you are in UK. (The second option is probably preferable in most circumstances.)
Re the insurance conundrum raised above, you have to have a UK car and an Italian car (not an impossible situation if you own properties in each country); one is owned and insured by A and the other by the partner, each naming the other partner as additional driver.
Complicated but within the law and a better than cuffing it with UK plates and licences in the hope you won't get caught.