scrubbedexpat143

Many thanks, tdrinker, for having raised some good points.

I had intended to heavily edit and cut down my last post (#13), but after writing and saving it I went walkabout for a few hours with SO and our friends and alas, when I came back to my MacBook the post had locked. Lesson learned. I will write them as my Word document first, and post with greater care...

Yes, so far I have traveled to Bali with an outbound ticket for 60 days later. So far this hasn't been a problem, but the point you raised is significant - a zealous immigration officer at Ngurarai in Bali may well ask to see my "out" ticket, not like what they see, and refuse me entry into Bali. I've not heard of this having happened, but it could. I could also cross Bourke or Collins Street in Melbourne without looking both ways and be run down by a passing tram. The Bali risk is just as great and this is worth considering.

If this happens I can always access Traveloka on my laptop and buy a 30 day ticket in a few minutes. In ten years of traveling to Indonesia, I've heard this happened one time to a Brit in Jakarta. As an Indonesian friend commented, "he could have tipped $50 and saved himself all that problem." But the point is that it does happen. Again, yes, it can happen, it has happened, it's a concern.

An easy option is to book an outbound ticket to Malaysia on Air Asia - ood luck to you with finding a 20 quid ticket from anyone these days!) which will cost me about (AUD) $100. Airfares out of Bali are always high but are often cheaper from Surabaya and cheapest from Jakarta, especially for off-peak flights. I use Air Asia or sometimes Scoot and now and then Citilink. Budget at least $100 for flights in and out of Indonesia, at peak times more. Penang to Surabaya can be done for as little as $60 off-peak, but usually costs up to $150. Scoot can be cheaper but usually stands you for up to 6-8 hours at Changi airport in Singapore, which to me is a fate (almost) like death by consumerism, and adds too long a time to my travel.

Indonesia often flip-flops on its visas but on the whole a sensible attitude about tourism prevails, tourists bring money. Flying in and out of Bali is surely the least-risk option, in Surabaya I've found the younger Immigration staff can get snoopy and work through the usual list of silly questions ("do you have a business here?" and "are you a global nomad?" being the current most popular. In future I may opt to fly back via Bali and hop a Citilink commuter flight to Surabaya, if I decide to locate myself in East Java rather than at Nusa Due or Sanur.

Re medical insurance for travel, I regard it as mostly a scam in Australia but a Google search will turn up a few reliable sellers with comprehensive plans for expats from $50 a month. I know some who have them and they all say these are super good value. Worth considering. I will be looking further into them if/when I decide on my next living place here.

More and more I see medium-term to long-term stays in Southeast Asia on tourist visas as rather a luxury from the past. As an age pensioner with modest resources I can also see my time as a wanderer in the less expensive countries eventually coming to an end. Yes, as you say, having a few backup plans in your back pocket. Plan B may well include spending $100 on an Air Asia ticket to Kuala Lumpur dated 30 days later, just in case.

So far Malaysia and the Philippines look to me as having the most advantageous tourist visas available in SEA and they look like the best options for waltz-in-waltz-out visitors like me. As much as I would miss Indonesia if I were to stop visiting here, Malaysia especially appeals to me for many reasons, notably ease of traveling in and out and also around the country, the rail and bus services are top and affordable. So yes, and I may have to consider one of these two countries as they have good tourist visas, everyone speaks English (unlike Indonesia where once one has worked one's way through what we call The Seven Deadly Questions, all conversation with Indonesians often ends) as well as congenial cultures and low costs.

tdrinker

Having to have an onward ticket can be a pain, if you either know the Immigration procedure at the arrival airport (i.e. they don't require one) or you want to travel with flexibility and decide later when to return, whether to travel to other locations, etc. But I know from experience that check-in desks sometimes require them, and I've had to immediately buy an onward ticket I didn't want to be allowed to fly. Now I'm more careful in having an onward ticket; a throwaway ticket is cheap if you're travelling to (say) Thailand / Malaysia / Singapore, but it's not the case to many destinations.

Malaysia makes it easy with their 90-day tourist visa. It's better developed / more western than some of its neighbours, which can be a positive or negative depending on what you're looking for.

The last time I was looking for long stay but not resident / travelling long-term to multiple locations type medical insurance, I found plenty of reasonably priced suppliers but the reviews were universally poor - good reviews tended to be the ease of taking out a policy, poor reviews on making or getting a claim paid - even accepting that people are more likely to leave a review if unhappy (Trust Pilot is one source of reviews). If there are any reasonably priced and reliable providers, I couldn't find them. I've had such policies, but in hindsight I wonder how much (if any) cover I really had - thankfully, I've haven't had to claim.

scrubbedexpat143

Good points overall, drinker. Thanks!

I intended to make my previous post more relevant with a second edit, but BE froze me out. I like to edit after writing as I can then fine-tune details, especially when quoting. However, not this time.

I too dislike having to buy onward tickets I know I won't be using. Air Asia has had enough money from me for its at times dubious flight services, and they also diddled me out of AUD $100 during Covid for a flight I had to cancel, and put in a claim, which they then conveniently "lost" and when I finally returned to it, up popped the "excuse" that sorry you've left it too late and the timeline has expired. Timeline, what timeline? to me if it looks like a scam and smells like a scam, then it's a scam. $100 is $100 to me, and I have a long memory for such petty behavior.

Such is the way of the real world of flying in Asia now, and there is no getting around it. I nowadays try to avoid Air Asia when I can, but often as not it's the best if not the only way to get out of Java and to Malaysia. So needs must.

Many tourists I know avoid Malaysia, claiming it's too boring. Which suits me just fine. Fewer foreigners around when and where I travel pleases me. It keeps prices down and other social annoyances to a minimum. But that's just me. Personally, I see Malaysian culture as eminently civilized, and Malaysians are among the friendliest people I've met in SEA, even more so than many Indonesians who all too often see foreigners as useful supplements to their income and the interactions implicit with quick and easy money in mind, not so much Java or the outlying islands but certainly Bali, where entirely too often many Balinese can be the best friends money can buy...

Health care is a minefield wherever we buy it. I too have had Indonesian policies in the past, and like you drinker, I regard them as "insurance" against possible medical events and also as a necessity to get into some countries, fortunately, not so (or at least not yet) Indonesia. Their best point is low monthly rates (the last one I used was AUD $50 a month and it covered everything I had to have.) I've not had to use these policies. It seems there are a few good ones. If and when I ever buy another, I will get it online and not from an agency where sellers often peg prices they ask for according to how they see you. As they say in Australia, "they see you coming".

I realize much of what I've written here will come across as negative to some. Let me say in my defense here that the points I've made tend to come across as less than positive, and we have to know the bad as well as the good. There are many, many good things about being in Southeast Asia, also in Indonesia, and I enjoy those. But my eye are open to the realities of traveling to Asia in this post-Covid day and age, and it's best for us to not shove our heads in the sand and know what these realities are, and be prepared for them if they happen.

As for us, we will be in Nusa Due in Bali on sunny, for 3-4 days before SO flies to Australia. we both felt quite "Sanur'd out" and decided a new destination would be best for this time. I will then explore the place for a few days to see what if any potential there is for me to settle there longer term. A few foreigners I've spoken to about ND have expressed mixed reactions, mostly good but some negative. the two local beaches are probably its best point. Shopping, not so good. Travel to and from, reasonable (cheaper than Sanur to anywhere). Food, okay. Hotels, a good choice, more medium price than budget, but that's okay for a short stay.

So exciting times may loom ahead.

Fenella

We were ready to to settle down in Sanur after being nomadic for nearly 8 years. Then the visa rules changed and the Kitas is no longer available for those who haven't already got one. The second home visa is a disaster, nothing is clear and even writing to immigration and asking specific questions, no replies are forthcoming. We love Bali, but the situation at the moment is just not tenable. We are now considering the Thai elite visa. Yes, you have to pay for it, but at least you know what you're getting. Such a shame, but maybe it's meant to be :-)

scrubbedexpat143

I also am thinking this. Indonesia always flip-flops on major government issues and immigration/visas is this year's latest target.

As I see it, the 30 day tourist visa at Rp500,000/AUD$50 is a retrograde steps even if Bali is still awash with quick fly in-fly out tourists, which may be the target market Jakarta is aiming for to help balance its 2022-3 budget. Someone in the know in Bali has told me up to 20,000 tourists are now flying in every day and about 14,000-15,000 flying out - I'm unsure where these numbers came from, so they may be hearsay tho' if anywhere near accurate, it does mean more are staying long(er) term than are "only holidaying" on a package tour for a set time (usually 4-7 days).

I have no reliable figures to go by, but I do know that almost all the pre-Covid expats I knew in Sanur, the Kuta area and Nusa Dua are no longer there and most won't be returning. A few still stay in Ubud, I'm told mostly because they are women and retired or semi-retired, they have been there for many years and they have invested in properties/houses they will now find it difficult to sell unless they accept a predictably low offer from an Indonesian or Chinese resident buyer. Two I know are in exactly this predicament - they had long leases on their properties but these (the leases) are now nearing their end and the owners (usually but not always Balinese) have indicated they can expect shorter-term leases along with steep increases in rents when the time comes to negotiate for their new leases. They do own their houses, but other than selling them and then having the new owners (if foreign) relocate them (to where?) then they are really up the proverbial creek. Most want to stay in Ubud as they have forged social links and have friends there, but they all say they now see little or no long-term future for themselves in Bali. Most will probably end up moving on - but to where? Thailand, maybe Malaysia, the Philippines. Not much more choice.

So yes, life for expats in Indonesia is no longer as much an "experience" of late mornings, a swim before lunch, the Cafe Batujimbar (now gone) for a late afternoon Bintang beer with ice and lime, and a leisurely dinner with 'elevenses' afterwards with friends at one of the pleasant small cafe-bars in Sanur. That was never my chosen lifestyle anyway, but it was there if I wanted it. Now no longer so.

Anyway, tomorrow evening I'll fly from Surabaya in East Java to Bali and go to Nusa Dua. My SO will return to Australia on Tuesday and I will stay on to explore and check out what options are available for renting as well as sounding out my local contacts about the feasibility of staying longer-term in Bali on tourist visas. Frankly, the prognosis for this latter tactic doesn't look at all good - I would be at the mercy of any immigration officer who may decide to let me in when I arrive at the airport or if having a bad day, to (entirely on a whim) put me through the rules and regulations book before deciding (arbitrarily) if I can stay or not. Bali wants tourism and tourist dollars and so far I've not heard of this happening, but my age the unhappy prospect (or possible threat) thereof no longer appeals to me.

In my case I'm okay to stay on (at least medium-term) in Surabaya when I have a small apartment (and several rescue cats) on a month to month basis. I've had this since 2013 but the house owners are now old and are talking about selling up and moving on to live with family members. If they do then my casual lease arrangements will be up for whatever the new owner (likely other family members) may decide. So more insecurity here also.

The time is coming for me to consider packing up my collections and books and shipping them from Surabaya to Australia. As for the cats, well. No decision yet. Finding homes for four spoiled felines won't be easy, dowries will surely have to be paid, and regular visits planned for to ensure they are being cared for as we have. Yet ore fuss, bother, complexities, complications.

What Frenella writes about the KITAS is not good news, altho' (again at my age) I do not want to tie up a lot of my cash in a visa with all the fuss and bother of dealing with the bureaucracy to get the visa in the first place and after I "pop off" my executor will then be up for new battles to get it cancelled and that money refunded. I've had too many problems with Asian bureaucracies in the past.

Sadly for me, this year may be the time for me to face the reality that my long-term stay in Asia is coming to an end, go home to Australia, and make new plans for us to downsize and relocate there. Whatever we decide and whichever way we go, the future will surely mean a lot of thinking, planning and preparation. Not at all looking forward to all this...

scrubbedexpat143

Now in Nusa Dua. After one week I have decided to relocate myself to Sanur and use it as my base to explore a little further the area around Denpasar. My quest for something affordable to rent continues - ideally I want a small villa, maximum two bedrooms, no spa or pool required but within easy walking to the central amenities (Hardy's shopping center, good cafes, transport in and out of here) and not too far from Denpasar.

ND has been a "learning curve" for me. So much has changed post-Covid. For my needs, the minuses slightly outweigh the positives and cost being an important factor, I decided it isn't for me as a bolt-hole in Indonesia. But then the same seems to be the case in Sanur, and likely anywhere else in Bali. "Foreigner price" now applies to almost everything.

I'm hesitant to make this thread a One Man Show. So before I post anything longer, I will wait for others to join in and comment on aspects of returning to or living in Bali. Odd that a place so popular with expats before Covid hit in 2020 is now all but abandoned by all except tourists who visit on 30 day tourist visas but often stay no more than a week or ten days.

It may be that the flip-flop Indonesian visa system is at play here, and a factor in expats being wary of coming post-Covid to Bali. Yet other Asian destinations - notably Thailand - have similar restrictions, and no problem with expats moving there. Why so?

Over to the other now. I will return regularly to read and I hope, post.

tdrinker

I expect there are 2 main expat groups attracted to Bali, digital nomads and retirees. For both, cost will be an issue - visa cost and living cost. Both have increased significantly, and even those with reasonable funds may be unwilling to deposit significant funds in-country as a requirement to obtain a visa (dead money), even those who are willing to invest in property. A major (not only) attraction of Bali is a warm weather, low cost, low hassle lifestyle, and increasing the cost reduces its attractiveness and prices many people out.

Several countries have recently introduced digital nomad visas, so Bali is facing increased competition for this market. Digital nomads by their nature can easily relocate, so increasing options elsewhere combined with increased costs in Bali will likely cause some (many?) to move elsewhere.

Retirees have fewer options and are less in-demand. Malaysia and Thailand (and Cambodia?) have recently increased their long-stay visa prices, with Malaysia's especially expensive and unaffordable for most. The region appears to be trying to move up-market and attract more (or extract more cash from its existing) well-heeled expats, but a significant number of current / previous expats don't fit that demographic. It's becoming increasingly difficult to find a warm, low cost, low hassle, safe retirement location - you're welcome if you have (and will spend) lots of money; less welcome otherwise.

scrubbedexpat143

Hello from Singaraja. I've been to Nusa Dua, Sanur and Ubud. Now looking at sunsets from the beachfront of surprisingly, charming, not at all crowded and laid back North Bali , not (yet) invaded by the mad hordes of bus tour foreign tourists. They will come, but so far it's peaceful and quiet here. Long may it last.

Bali is back to business as usual. The Balinese are slowly coming to realize that asking for five times pre-Covid prices for everything isn't the way to make friends and influence tourists - transport is still too expensive, but GoCar is here and I'm finding it's possible to make even taxi drivers think more sensibly by playing off all sides against my walled. "You want money, you give me a better price" actually gets a positive response here. Down south, well, I don't know.

In another few days I will fly back to Surabaya for a week there before returning to Australia. Getting my good self from Singaraja to the airport will be my next challenge. My friends (Germans) have kindly offered to drive me, and I may negotiate with them to cover their expenses, which will be good for ell parties as they want to make a weekend of it as well and do a little shopping in Denpasar. I flatly turned down my usual driver's first offer of US$250 ("best price" - sure, it is, for him!) to take me to the airport, to which he retorted the usual "how much you pay?" and I told him I'll decide, if I want to use you I'll let you know. I then cancelled an excursion we had booked with him for the next day and the message got rammed home. His next price offer was about half the first - but still too rich for my blood.

This sort of unnecessary haggling is the new way in Bali. I dislike it, and I'm finding many more tourists who are now fighting back and using the web more to get better prices.

I've not met any nomads, but having said this, most are younger than I am and I most likely I don't hang out where they do. My usual (past) driver said they stay in Bali on 30 day tourist visas which they (sometimes) renew for 30 more days, but then leave the country for better places - Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam, mostly Thailand). Of late Indonesian Immigration has been quietly investigating who is working illegally at what in Bali, and (this again from my Bali driver) a few nomads have been unpleasantly surprised by being told they had to leave the country.

So far I've not met many long term stayers here. My German friends in Singapore have been here 15 years, mostly in Lombok, and relocated to Bali at the start of the Covid restrictions, a move they say they now regret. They own a villa out of the town, in a complex (and likely complicated) arrangement with a Balinese friend, and they now plan to sell up, pay him out, and return to Germany before the year's end as they are past 70 and both have health problems. They are long-standing friends and I ask them about their visa arrangements but they wouldn't give me any details and I did press the point.

Nusa Dua was mostly delightful but more expensive than Sanur. It draws an older, moneyed crowd and services (hotels and resorts, restaurants and cafes, shopping or what there is of this) are geared to these bigger-than-average spenders. Prices for just about everything in the tourist strips are better, also much cheaper in Denpasar. I've not found a really good supermarket. The beaches are superb as always. Getting to and from anywhere else by taxi means another involved session of hard bargaining. GoCar is available but the drivers are reluctant to pick up in public places, saying they've had "problems" with the taxi men who threaten them with violence. This being Bali the authorities course look the other way.

Interesting that Russians are turning up almost everywhere in Bali now, mostly skins and not spending. I say "almost" - there were none to be seen in Nusa Dua, they mostly hang out in Kuta-Legian-Seminyak, a scant few in Sanur, and none I saw in Ubud but my GoCar driver said they are there. "No money!" is the usual complaint from the Balinese, which makes me laugh - to me the Balinese are now - may I risk quoting an old, old joke - the best friends money can buy...

Like tdrinker (in his previous post) I'm not finding many options in this post-Covid time. The natural attractions of Bali are easily found in several other Southeast Asian countries, in some even cheaper than Indonesia. Yet the higher costs and the visa restrictions are also felt there. Two friends living long-term in the Philippines say they plan to leave, one to Vietnam, the other unsure where. Others say they are looking at Malaysia on 90 day tourist visas, which opens up new potential problems with Immigration there.

More and more I am coming to the conclusion that the years of "the going was good" are now mostly over in Indonesia. The time may have come to look at other options - I may visit the Philippines later this year, if my partner agrees to let me go there. We do all my travels by mutual consultation.

My travel needs differ from those of many - I have a partner and a home in Australia, so I don't want to be away traveling for long periods. So I come and I go, or as my partner says, "wash, rinse, dry, repeat."

For me a new plan is now in the "thinking about" it stage. I can maybe visit Indonesia for two months on a 30 day (renewed one time) tourist visa, then spend a little time in Malaysia, return to Indonesia for another month, then go home to Australia. I want to keep it all legal, but I'm leery of turning up one day and maybe being refused entry by an overzealous Immigration officer (there are many of those in Surabaya) having a bad day.

I'm also very aware that my time to buy a rocking chair and sit at home with a book, old movies on YouTube and Netflix, a glass of good wine at my side and the cat on my lap (well, not quite, but I'm sure you get the picture) may be coming up.

Given the world situation at present and at this stage in my life I'm not sure how it will all work out for me, but I can only try and see.