Salvaging PR Status if Possible

Old Jan 23rd 2017, 5:37 am
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Default Re: Salvaging PR Status if Possible

[QUOTE=SchnookoLoly;12159347]I think you are grasping at straws here.

Here's my view of the situation, others can step in if I'm wrong.

1) You cannot board a plane to Canada with an expired PR card. The airline will deny you boarding. So in order to be able to get on the plane, you need to apply for a PR Travel Document (PRTD).

2) When you apply for the PRTD, you will be hoping that the officer who examines your application does not notice that you cannot meet your residency obligation.
>>If the officer does not notice, then you'll get your PRTD, and you can board the plane.
>>If the officer does notice, your PRTD will be rejected and the officer will start the process of having your PR formally revoked.


No I think were still at odds my friend,

Firstly I have children so theres no chance of trying to "wing it" in some way I have to deal with this properly.

I have an expired PR card so to travel to Canada I will need a PRTD to board the plane. When I apply for the PRTD the visa officer will have to "determine" my PR status. In the absence of mitigating circumstances it is likely at this point that the Officer will determine negatively and a process will be started and I will subsequently officially lose PR.

I am hoping however that the officer will consider my representations and determine positively for retention of my PR status.

It is this point forward I am interested in.

According to the official version I would retain PR status but I cant find any info beyond that. Is the PR "reset" as I initially presumed , is it for the minimum period to allow renewal i.e 2 years, do special rules apply to these cases?
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Old Jan 23rd 2017, 5:43 am
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Default Re: Salvaging PR Status if Possible

Originally Posted by cheeky_monkey
My PRTD has multiple entries as this is what i requested.
Yes I have read that you can request a "multi" if you need to travel back and fro to tie up loose ends.
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Old Jan 23rd 2017, 5:56 am
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Default Re: Salvaging PR Status if Possible

Originally Posted by SchnookoLoly
I think you are grasping at straws here.

Here's my view of the situation, others can step in if I'm wrong.

1) You cannot board a plane to Canada with an expired PR card. The airline will deny you boarding. So in order to be able to get on the plane, you need to apply for a PR Travel Document (PRTD).

2) When you apply for the PRTD, you will be hoping that the officer who examines your application does not notice that you cannot meet your residency obligation.
>>If the officer does not notice, then you'll get your PRTD, and you can board the plane.
>>If the officer does notice, your PRTD will be rejected and the officer will start the process of having your PR formally revoked.

3) If you do get the PRTD, you fly to Canada. At the point of entry, the officer again has to make the determination on whether or not you will meet your residency obligation.
>>If the officer does not notice, you will be allowed entry into Canada
>>If the officer does notice, you will still be allowed entry, but the officer will start the process of having your PR formally revoked.

4) If the first officer grants you a PRTD *AND* you make it past the border, then you can stay in Canada for 2 full years and THEN apply to renew your PR, as you will then satisfy the requirement of 2 years of residency.

Applying to renew your PR at the time when you first get into CAnada you will for sure have it rejected because in order to renew your PR you have to fill out a residency questionnaire, so they'll for sure see that. So if you do get in, you have to stay put for 2 years so that when you fill out that questionnaire you can actually show your 2 years of residency.

Does that make more sense?


+1
ENF 27 - PR Cards

Applicants for PRCs are required to substantiate their residence in Canada by providing their residential history for the past five years, as well as the name and address of their employer(s) and/or school(s) attended. While the IMM 1000 is the primary document to demonstrate status, clients have the additional flexibility to submit alternative documentation, including a provincial driver’s licence or other provincial photo ID, student cards from provincially accredited colleges or universities, or the most recent Canada Revenue Agency tax assessment notice.

and

If the PRC applicant does not appear to meet the residency requirement (e.g., following an examination of the passport and travel history, input from the visa office, etc.) and insufficient H&C grounds are identified to overcome this shortfall, the officer writes a report under A44(1). The report goes to a Minister’s delegate, who may issue a removal order under A44(2).
See also ENF 4 - Port of Entry examinations.

Edited to add:

If you want to do it the correct way you may have to voluntarily agree to have your PR status rescinded and reapply.

I'm sorry but I think you are clutching at straws if you hope that the Visa officer - on examination of your mitigating circumstances - will agree to your retaining PR status on H&C grounds - it's a very long shot. The likely determination is going to be that you have had 3 years to return to Canada (as has been mentioned by others, you could have bought the mother in law with you) and resume residency. I'd like to think that the visa officer would be understanding but I don't think you have sufficient grounds, sadly.

Last edited by Siouxie; Jan 23rd 2017 at 6:02 am.
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Old Jan 23rd 2017, 6:19 am
  #34  
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Default Re: Salvaging PR Status if Possible

Originally Posted by Siouxie


+1
ENF 27 - PR Cards

Applicants for PRCs are required to substantiate their residence in Canada by providing their residential history for the past five years, as well as the name and address of their employer(s) and/or school(s) attended. While the IMM 1000 is the primary document to demonstrate status, clients have the additional flexibility to submit alternative documentation, including a provincial driver’s licence or other provincial photo ID, student cards from provincially accredited colleges or universities, or the most recent Canada Revenue Agency tax assessment notice.

and

If the PRC applicant does not appear to meet the residency requirement (e.g., following an examination of the passport and travel history, input from the visa office, etc.) and insufficient H&C grounds are identified to overcome this shortfall, the officer writes a report under A44(1). The report goes to a Minister’s delegate, who may issue a removal order under A44(2).
See also ENF 4 - Port of Entry examinations.

Edited to add:

If you want to do it the correct way you may have to voluntarily agree to have your PR status rescinded and reapply.

I'm sorry but I think you are clutching at straws if you hope that the Visa officer - on examination of your mitigating circumstances - will agree to your retaining PR status on H&C grounds - it's a very long shot. The likely determination is going to be that you have had 3 years to return to Canada (as has been mentioned by others, you could have bought the mother in law with you) and resume residency. I'd like to think that the visa officer would be understanding but I don't think you have sufficient grounds, sadly.

I appreciate it's a long shot and as only 10% of appeals are upheld the odds are against you but there is nothing to be lost trying.

I'm a glass half full (or even a tenth full!) guy so still want to know what happens after I get my PR reinstated, what would be my ongoing status?
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Old Jan 23rd 2017, 6:41 am
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Default Re: Salvaging PR Status if Possible

Originally Posted by Farmhand
I appreciate it's a long shot and as only 10% of appeals are upheld the odds are against you but there is nothing to be lost trying.

I'm a glass half full (or even a tenth full!) guy so still want to know what happens after I get my PR reinstated, what would be my ongoing status?
Not really sure what you're asking, your status would be that of a PR if you get PR status ok'ed. Can you clarify what you mean by 'what would be my ongoing status'?

FWIW, I agree with the others, and if you're eligible then it would be a lot easier and cheaper to just relinquish your status now and reapply. Best in mind those 10% of cases mentioned will have really good grounds i.e. hospitalisation/imprisonment/amnesia and waking up only to realise that it was JR's ghost that did it (ok, maybe not the last one, but you get the idea!).

What ties do you have in Canada to show you intended to return there? Were you paying a mortgage on your home, did you keep a car, bank account etc? Those kind of things will be vital if you intend to go down the legal route.

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Old Jan 23rd 2017, 6:50 am
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Default Re: Salvaging PR Status if Possible

Originally Posted by Farmhand
I appreciate it's a long shot and as only 10% of appeals are upheld the odds are against you but there is nothing to be lost trying.

I'm a glass half full (or even a tenth full!) guy so still want to know what happens after I get my PR reinstated, what would be my ongoing status?
I'm confused! I 'think' you are asking 'if the PRTD is issued, does that mean that you have retained your PR status' - is that correct?

As you know, the PR Travel Document will only get you on the flight (presuming that they don't realise you are out of status/haven't met the residential requirements and start proceedings). Once you arrive in Canada you will be examined by a CBSA Officer. It will all depend on whether s/he determines that you are out of status and starts the documentation to remove your PR or whether s/he allows you to enter Canada without having done so,

Your PR would not be reinstated, per se, as you would not have lost it until such time as that is determined through official process (as far as I could ascertain). However, by not having lived in Canada for 2 years, you would be out of status (due to lack of residential requirements) and could not apply for a PR card.

All you could hope for is that if you get your lack of residential requirement past the PRTD officer and the CBSA officer, you could remain in Canada for 2 years and then you would be 'in status' again.

If you are reluctant to voluntarily rescind your PR, perhaps the way to go is to apply for a PRTD and see what happens then... if it's refused then you can rescind/relinquish and start the application for PR again. If it's not, then you can decide whether to risk flying to Canada or not.

Edited to add: You do realise the huge amount of expense and time that an appeal on H&C grounds will take? It would be far cheaper and quicker to apply for Pr again!

This might be of use.. http://ccrweb.ca/en/issues-humanitar...e-applications


Last edited by Siouxie; Jan 23rd 2017 at 6:58 am.
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Old Jan 23rd 2017, 7:07 am
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Default Re: Salvaging PR Status if Possible

Originally Posted by Siouxie

All you could hope for is that if you get your lack of residential requirement past the PRTD officer and the CBSA officer, you could remain in Canada for 2 years and then you would be 'in status' again.



so your saying if you had your PRTD and the CBSA officer lets you in..just dont leave Canada for 2 years then re-apply for your PR Card and your status is valid again?
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Old Jan 23rd 2017, 7:08 am
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Default Re: Salvaging PR Status if Possible

Originally Posted by christmasoompa
Not really sure what you're asking, your status would be that of a PR if you get PR status ok'ed. Can you clarify what you mean by 'what would be my ongoing status'?

FWIW, I agree with the others, and if you're eligible then it would be a lot easier and cheaper to just relinquish your status now and reapply. Best in mind those 10% of cases mentioned will have really good grounds i.e. hospitalisation/imprisonment/amnesia and waking up only to realise that it was JR's ghost that did it (ok, maybe not the last one, but you get the idea!).

What ties do you have in Canada to show you intended to return there? Were you paying a mortgage on your home, did you keep a car, bank account etc? Those kind of things will be vital if you intend to go down the legal route.
Can you clarify what you mean by 'what would be my ongoing status'?

Yes - When I got my shiny new PR card it was at the beginning of a rolling 5 year period, after the initial period and at renewal it must be shown that in the preceding 5 years prior to an application for a PR card renewal the PR was there for a minimum 730 days. PR in effect must be continuously re-validated and most commonly this is done by residence.

If and yes its a big if I know my PR was revalidated would I effectively be issued or be able to obtain a fresh PR card valid for 5 years?

This is what Im trying to find out yes I might be jumping the gun, yes I could just reapply but if I dont and I was successful what would I be ending up with? I'm beginning to think now it can only be a new card valid for 5 years.
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Old Jan 23rd 2017, 7:12 am
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Default Re: Salvaging PR Status if Possible

Originally Posted by cheeky_monkey
so your saying if you had your PRTD and the CBSA officer lets you in..just dont leave Canada for 2 years then re-apply for your PR Card and your status is valid again?
I believe that is what several people have said, lol.

It's very risky though - and you would also be at risk of removal should it come to light at any time during those 2 years, I believe.
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Old Jan 23rd 2017, 7:19 am
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Default Re: Salvaging PR Status if Possible

Originally Posted by cheeky_monkey
so your saying if you had your PRTD and the CBSA officer lets you in..just dont leave Canada for 2 years then re-apply for your PR Card and your status is valid again?
In theory, yes. Whenever someone from CIC looks at your PR application to determine if you are eligible, it's based on the previous 5 years from whatever day they are looking at. That's why we say if you are lucky enough to get past the border without the officer noticing that you don't meet your obligation then you can renew your PR once you've accumulated the required 730 days. The residency questionnaire only asks for the last 5 years of travel info, so by staying put in Canada you can accumulate the 730 days required to renew.

Chances of you getting past the officer in the first place, though, is pretty slim. Not impossible, but slim. The reason is that on your landing card you have to write in the date you last left Canada... so if the date you left Canada is more than 3 years ago then by default it means you haven't been in the country for 2 of the past 5 years.

Originally Posted by Farmhand
Can you clarify what you mean by 'what would be my ongoing status'?

Yes - When I got my shiny new PR card it was at the beginning of a rolling 5 year period, after the initial period and at renewal it must be shown that in the preceding 5 years prior to an application for a PR card renewal the PR was there for a minimum 730 days. PR in effect must be continuously re-validated and most commonly this is done by residence.

If and yes its a big if I know my PR was revalidated would I effectively be issued or be able to obtain a fresh PR card valid for 5 years?

This is what Im trying to find out yes I might be jumping the gun, yes I could just reapply but if I dont and I was successful what would I be ending up with? I'm beginning to think now it can only be a new card valid for 5 years.
Not having a valid PR card does not mean you are not a PR - you need to disconnect those two things in your head. The card is simply your PROOF that you are a PR.

That's why if you enter Canada and never leave you technically don't have to keep renewing your PR card. However, if you want to travel, you have to have a valid PR card, which means you have to renew it every 5 years, which means every 5 years you have to continue to prove you meet the residency requirement.

So if all of the following happen, you will retain your PR status:
1) You apply for a PRTD and it's approved
2) The officer who processes your app for a PRTD doesn't notice that you don't meet the residency requirement
3) The CBSA officer who examines you at the border doesn't notice that you don't meet the residency requirement
4) You stay put in Canada for 2 years to accumulate the 730 days

If ANY of those do not happen, you will lose your PR status. That is:
1) Your PRTD is refused
2) The officer who processes your app for a PRTD does notice you don't meet the residency requirement and starts the process to formally revoke your PR
3) The CBSA officer who examines you at the border does notice you don't meet the residency requirement and starts the process to formally revoke your PR
4) You fail to stay in Canada for 2 years without leaving

As everyone else has said, you are better off voluntarily giving up your PR and reapplying under the EE stream, assuming you have enough points.
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Old Jan 23rd 2017, 7:54 am
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Default Re: Salvaging PR Status if Possible

Originally Posted by SchnookoLoly
.

Chances of you getting past the officer in the first place, though, is pretty slim. Not impossible, but slim. The reason is that on your landing card you have to write in the date you last left Canada... so if the date you left Canada is more than 3 years ago then by default it means you haven't been in the country for 2 of the past 5 years.


My understanding is you can write what you like on the landing card in terms of leaving date as immigration do not know when you left as they do not track people leaving the country only those coming in..so theoretically if you left say 4 years ago you could just say you left 1 year ago and they wouldn't know??
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Old Jan 23rd 2017, 8:00 am
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Default Re: Salvaging PR Status if Possible

Originally Posted by cheeky_monkey
My understanding is you can write what you like on the landing card in terms of leaving date as immigration do not know when you left as they do not track people leaving the country only those coming in..so theoretically if you left say 4 years ago you could just say you left 1 year ago and they wouldn't know??
If you get caught lying you are in way more trouble, so I would not under any circumstances recommend lying on a federal form. Misrepresentation is a big deal.
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Old Jan 23rd 2017, 8:01 am
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Default Re: Salvaging PR Status if Possible

Originally Posted by cheeky_monkey
My understanding is you can write what you like on the landing card in terms of leaving date as immigration do not know when you left as they do not track people leaving the country only those coming in..so theoretically if you left say 4 years ago you could just say you left 1 year ago and they wouldn't know??
But then you run the risk of misrepresentation and could have your PR status rescinded at any time due to it. Not worth even thinking of this, in my opinion.
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Old Jan 23rd 2017, 8:04 am
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Default Re: Salvaging PR Status if Possible

Originally Posted by cheeky_monkey
My understanding is you can write what you like on the landing card in terms of leaving date as immigration do not know when you left as they do not track people leaving the country only those coming in..so theoretically if you left say 4 years ago you could just say you left 1 year ago and they wouldn't know??
That's misrepresentation and PR (and even citizenship years down the line) can be revoked for it! So no, definitely don't lie on that form.
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Old Jan 23rd 2017, 8:05 am
  #45  
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Default Re: Salvaging PR Status if Possible

Without an actual PR card...boarding the plane may not be possible. I've just written about my experience leaving the UK in the following thread. Fortunately we had US PPs...therefore we do not need a PR card or ETA to board a plane to Canada. We use NEXUS only to enter Canada...we have changed our status to PR with NEXUS.

http://britishexpats.com/forum/immig.../#post12159529

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