Ashok

I do not believe Quota is proportional to Population of the source country.
If that is true is than Phillipine should not be at number 3, it should be Pakistan. Pakistan has almost 2 times the population of Phillipines.

Rest it is foregone conclusion that India has largest English speaking population next to US ( 10 years ago)
Today India is number 1
( See this : http://www.abc.net.au/newsradio/txt/s1363471.htm )

That is the reason India is far ahead of China when it comes to Bussiness process outsourcing or Call centres.

Andrew Miller

Phillipines numbers are out of proportion for one main reason - majority of Live-in Caregivers in Canada are Phillipinos and after 2 years on the program they are allowed to apply for PR status in Canada - such "conversions" are not included in annual targets.

Ashok, I'm sure that I speak here not only for myself when I say that we all respect yours (and other Indians in this forum) national pride and we all really appreciate it. But this forum is not about national pride and definitely not about what nationals "deserve" more visas and what nationals do not.

smitp11

I commend anyone who can speak something other than their maternal language. But have you ever tried speaking to someone in those call centres, once you have to move the subject away from their "script" they are completely lost. There's the ability to speak another language and then there is fluency in another language. One of my previous employers moved their local HR department to a global HR department (not to an English speaking country). It took them 2 months to understand my need for a reference. Just my experiences.

NB This is why CHC insist on TEF and IELTS.

Ashok

NO NO NO , somewhere I am being misread.
I am talking about CHC Canada needs and who can fullfill them better than others, if it comes to English speaking. I have seen and talked to prospective immigrants in front of CHC Delhi. Most of them were tractor load of Farmers. That is why I question : What kind of immigrants CIC is seeking and what kind will emerge out if you look at the selection criteria.

India is countries within a country , with so much of diversity and availabilty, CHC can pick up good english speaking prospective immigrants. That is not true if it come to China. Just survey how many guys from Mainland or even HK are on this Forum or any other english forum.

Also I am not talking about quality of Call centre guys, I am talking about who has them most ( India or China), when it comes to serving the needs of West. Why so ? China offers much lower wages than India.

Personally I do visit Mainland China and also Singapore Malaysia as well as Indonesia, I meet a lot of Phillipinos also. Except Chinese all others have a much better Command over English Language.

There is trace of national pride over here, it is just plain and simple question, which I asked, keeping in view what we aim to select and what figure in Monitor speak. If Canada, wants to pick up more and more English speaking guys , they can do so , without spending so called 1b$ TAX PAYERS MONEY in an effort to teach English once these immigrants land in Canada.

iaink

Perhaps as a multi cultural society, Canada wishes to maintain a balance of different cultures in its immigrant population, rather than saturate it with one particular group in the name of english ability. (Cant see that idea being too popular in la belle provence anyway).

Perhaps they would rather choose top rate technically skilled people from around the world, even if they have second rate English / French, rather than Second rate technically skilled people with first rate English / French

Its much easier to teach skilled people the language than to teach English/French speakers the skills. If the emphasis was on language ability over skills there would be no need for skilled immigrants, Canada would just retrain those already here speaking the language in the technical skills required...in fact if you read the reaction of many Canadians reading the Globe and Mail online to the recent announcment of more money to train immigrants to settle here, thats exactly what most of the ignorant masses would like to see. My suspicion is a lot of that money is intended to get family class and refugee immigrants up and going here, rather than the "economic" refugees anyway.

hankim2

Ashok

I live in a country with diverse ethnic groups including Chinese and Indians. Sorry to tell you, but the English spoken by the many Indians I come across are very heavily accented that comprehending what they say is a big problem. I am sure you could find many Indians who could speak less accented English, but I have also come across many Chinese from Mainland China, HK, Malaysia and Singapore who could speak good English but less accented and more easily understood.

How do we then sieve out these people and give all equal chance (whether from India or Mainland China), it is the ielts.

Colsgirl

Maybe it was just the way I was raised, but I believe that you make your own luck. I have always been taught that if you really want something then you have to work for it - whether a degree, learning French or finding a job when you get here.

I beg to differ that learning French is a waste of time. I was led to believe that in BC you wouldn't need it. I am surprised by how many people I have come across who list French as their first language. Even if you are a tradesman (and nothing wrong with that - an honest job), putting on your business cards that you are French speaking makes you instantly attractive to the French speakers. I was talking to one lady and she was saying that she was fine with everyday situations when it came to speaking English. But when having a technical conversation about something, she only knows the French words. Plus, if you are like me, two sides to a packet, I always end up looking at the French side first.

Ashok

hankim2
so far I am talking about :

If It is recognised that CIC is asking for SW's with good IELTS & TEF scores than China lacks in that, India has plenty of them.

But it seems despite India being a number 1 or 2 English speaking country , I find Canadian system picking up those who lack in English as well as French. this I saw when I was at CHC Delhi also!

That surprises me : On one side you have a talent pool available but if you pick up those who are least conversant than train them in Canada by spending a large portion of 1 billion $ , than what CIC is upto.

It is differrent story you happen meet less qualified Indians or heavily accented Indians but what CIC Point system wants , it is available in plenty !! But CIC does not seem to be picking them.

Today if you want English speaking trained nurses , well India is again a huge resource and most of them are heading USA. That is my point if you lay emphasis on language than do what you prescribe.

Ashok

Andrew
I picked up following figures for Year 2003 IELTS test band results India & (China).

Listening 5.12 (5.34)
Reading 5.74( 5.67)
Writing 6.24 (5.49)
Speaking 6.4 ( 5.42)
Overall 6.14 ( 5.54)

It says which country can offer better English speaking. But it may happen India's IELTS toppers are heading Australia or NZ. I do not know prefrences ,
and China top IELTS for Canada or else ???

Now let us understand if Policy for quota is to be made than one should go for many other stats such as KET - Key english test , PET - Preliminary english test, FCC First certificate in English , CAE - Certificate in advance english,CPE - certificate in proficiency in English , BEC - Bussiness english certificate >> all from From Cambridge.

If you look into all these (good for sustainable growth) than India is far ahead by a factor or 2 to 3 times!.These test tell us overall variety and performance in a bigger spread as well as things from grassroot level.

In some cases India is ahead of Canada too. I think it was FCE , where Grade A scorers from India are 30% , China 4 to 7% , Canada 7 to 10%

I am not mistaken ( Indonesia / Malaysia / Singapore score better than China)
Malaysia is even better than India! I do travel a lot and do meet all these nationalities.

hankim2

Ashok

Average statistics, even if correct, has its deficiency. Out of the many applicants from China, there could be enough of those with high proficiency in English to fill up Canada's needs such that it is not necessary to get applicants from India.

And if you look at the pass mark selection, if a person has moderate proficiency in English, he gets only 8 points. That will make it difficult for him to qualify even if he and his spouse have master's degrees.

So, I think the system is fairer with quotas for different countries. We certainly do not want Canada to become India II, nor should it be China II.

Ashok

Please look into remarks by Posi & iinik ( both recognise/ support language as biggest stumbling block) and multimillion $ spent by Canada to improve it.

I am saying : Canada does not seems to recognise that at Immigration selection stage. If that was true than they would have picked more from India. India has plenty of IELTS Band 8 also.

Also note there is no debate India vs China , who is better or worse.
It was an observation what CIC wants and what it picks up.

If you visit IELTS web site than it clearly indicates ( Pakistan / India/ Singapore / Malaysia / Indonesia/philippine ) all are ahead on IELTS, when you compare them with China.

Also let me correct myself In Listening it is 5.92 India / 5.35 China

If you look into all other Cambridge tests which I listed, India is way ahead. So are other countries when you compare with China.

So it looks CIC has some other logic when it assigns Quota.

Actually to create a self sustaining immigration system , when you allow such immigrants or policies which bring as well as create more immigrant and wealth, is not in place.

hankim2

Ashok,

Does the statistics show how many from China have all band 7 and above. May be there are sufficient in numbers to justify more from China. But that's not the point. The point here is diversity. Otherwise, why not more and more from native England, Australia or even other European countries where English is a strong second language (instead of settling for India).

I do believe that if the integrity of the current system is sustained ie no fake degrees, certificates etc, these skilled immigrants will eventually find meaningful work. After all immigrants from China (and India included) have strong work ethics and are "survivors".

samon

I second what all iaink has written, I for one am a technical person and was told in my school days, when I had taken up science as major to forget the language. When the equation is correct no one will bother in which tense or spelling it was written in.
Now Canada wants Skilled Workers and not literary men, someone who can contribute to the economy of the entry or the general population, and not men sitting in parks debating with the mastery of their words.
Language is a tool for conversation only and the accent is superimposed by local factors. When the accent of the same language varies from North and South in the same country, then how can you expect it to be same for two different countries?
So I think the wording of the new draft/announcement by the CIC should be changed to,- the amount to be paid over the next few years towards increasing or reorienting the skills of the SW to meet the demands of he local market.'

JAJ

Andrew
A properly designed immigration system should be able to attract roughly the same number of qualified applicants as the number of visas available on a worldwide basis.

Why should national quotas even enter the picture?

If all you are talking about is processing resources in various CIC offices, then Australia fixed the problem a few years ago by centralising processing in onshore offices dealing with a worldwide caseload. Not only has it delivered great savings in efficiency and improved program control (many fewer "local" policies to contend with) but it's brought jobs back to Australia from overseas.


Jeremy

JAJ

That's true. Most employers will only recruit from overseas if they really have no alternative. People sponsored for permanent visas by Australian employers can bypass the points system entirely as long as they meet other requirements.

It is not clear why CIC chooses to mix up those sponsored by employers with the general skilled caseload.

French language ability is a real asset in some parts of Canada outside Quebec (which has its own immigration system). Especially New Brunswick and eastern Ontario (eg Ottawa).

But I would suggest the extra points for being bilingual are less to do with economic attractiveness and more to do with the fact that as Canada is a bilingual country at federal level, Canada would prefer - all things being equal - its immigrants to be bilingual rather than unilingual. And therefore better able to appreciate and participate in a bilingual society.



Jeremy