Dear Mr. Andrew Miller

Old Oct 24th 2002, 8:52 pm
  #1  
Jet Li
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Dear Mr. Andrew Miller

You seems to know everything! I came across that you have posted something
very interesting, and I'm going to give it a try.

I'm referring to this post:
-
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=ordinarily+resident+in+Hong+Kong&hl=en&lr =

&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=3d3d1c45.3429000%40news.pacific.net.au&rnum =5

As I'm an Ordinarily Resident of Hong Kong, I'm going to pay them CAD$650
just to see what's gonna happen. What do you think of the chance of getting
British Citizenship as being a British National (Overseas)? I will keep
everyone updated on this one. Sorry for the off-toppic posting too...



Jet Li
 
Old Oct 24th 2002, 10:03 pm
  #2  
Jaj
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Dear Mr. Andrew Miller

You are referring to a post of mine, not Andrew's

You are not being clear about what status you have under British law.
If you are a British National (Overseas), have no other nationality,
were ordinarily resident in Hong Kong on 4 feb 1997, and are still
ordinarily resident in HK, then you may be eligible (under current
law) to apply for full British citizenship.

If you are a British Overseas citizen and have no other nationality,
you may be able to register as a British citizen without meeting the
residential criteria in Hong Kong. But that will only be possible
once the new British law is implemented, some point in 2003.

As for applying to Canada for immigration, you can apply to the CIC
office serving:
- the country of whose citizenship you hold; or
- the country in which you are lawfully resident for 12 months or
more.

Under new law then you could apply either to Hong Kong or Manila, if
you hold British National (Overseas) - BN(O) is as far as I know
generally regarded as a 'Hong Kong' nationality - and are resident in
the Philippines. But you applied under old law.

If you became a full British citizen, you could apply through London.

Jeremy


    >On Fri, 25 Oct 2002 08:52:00 GMT, "Jet Li" wrote:
    >You seems to know everything! I came across that you have posted something
    >very interesting, and I'm going to give it a try.
    >I'm referring to this post:
[q1]>
    >]http://groups.google.com/groups?q=ordinarily+resident+in+Hong+Kong&hl=en&lr =

    >&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=3d3d1c45.3429000%40news.pacific.net.au&rnum =5
    >As I'm an Ordinarily Resident of Hong Kong, I'm going to pay them CAD$650
    >just to see what's gonna happen. What do you think of the chance of getting
    >British Citizenship as being a British National (Overseas)? I will keep
    >everyone updated on this one. Sorry for the off-toppic posting too...
    >Jet Li
 
Old Oct 24th 2002, 10:18 pm
  #3  
Jet Li
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Dear Jeremy :)

Good to see you again Jeremy,

Referring to http://-
www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk/default.asp?pageid=1199


British courts have ruled that ordinary residence has the following
features:
a.. it is a regular habitual mode of life in a particular place;
b.. its continuity has persisted despite temporary absences;
c.. it may be of long or short duration;
d.. it must be lawful;
e.. it must have been adopted voluntarily;
f.. it must be for a settled purpose.
What exactly is an ordinary residence?

Here is my situation:
- A British National by born in Hong Kong (UK) on 197x. (a BNO right?)

- An ordinarily resident in Hong Kong since birth then?


- NEVER have any other nationality or citizenship other than the one written
on my "UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND NORTHERN IRELAND" passport. No
tie to the Chinese government, no HKSAR Passport. And I DO have a HK
Permanent ID with 3 stars.

It sounds to me that a lot of HK ppl are eligible to apply for the full
British Citizenship, I'm in Canada (not a Canadian), at this point I'm
sending my application to the British High Commission in Ottawa. please
correct me if I'm wrong.


Jet



"JAJ" wrote in message
news:[email protected]
net.au
...
    > You are referring to a post of mine, not Andrew's
    > You are not being clear about what status you have under British law.
    > If you are a British National (Overseas), have no other nationality,
    > were ordinarily resident in Hong Kong on 4 feb 1997, and are still
    > ordinarily resident in HK, then you may be eligible (under current
    > law) to apply for full British citizenship.
    > If you are a British Overseas citizen and have no other nationality,
    > you may be able to register as a British citizen without meeting the
    > residential criteria in Hong Kong. But that will only be possible
    > once the new British law is implemented, some point in 2003.
    > As for applying to Canada for immigration, you can apply to the CIC
    > office serving:
    > - the country of whose citizenship you hold; or
    > - the country in which you are lawfully resident for 12 months or
    > more.
    > Under new law then you could apply either to Hong Kong or Manila, if
    > you hold British National (Overseas) - BN(O) is as far as I know
    > generally regarded as a 'Hong Kong' nationality - and are resident in
    > the Philippines. But you applied under old law.
    > If you became a full British citizen, you could apply through London.
    > Jeremy
    > >On Fri, 25 Oct 2002 08:52:00 GMT, "Jet Li"
wrote:
    > >You seems to know everything! I came across that you have posted
something
    > >very interesting, and I'm going to give it a try.
    > >
    > >I'm referring to this post:
    >-
    >http://groups.google.com/groups?q=ordinarily+resident+in+Hong+Kong&hl=en&lr

=
    > >&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=3d3d1c45.3429000%40news.pacific.net.au&rnum =5
    > >
    > >As I'm an Ordinarily Resident of Hong Kong, I'm going to pay them CAD$650
    > >just to see what's gonna happen. What do you think of the chance of
getting
    > >British Citizenship as being a British National (Overseas)? I will keep
    > >everyone updated on this one. Sorry for the off-toppic posting too...
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >Jet Li
    > >
    > >
 
Old Oct 24th 2002, 10:55 pm
  #4  
Jaj
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Dear Jeremy :)

    >Referring to http:/-
    >/www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk/default.asp?pageid=1199

    >British courts have ruled that ordinary residence has the following
    >features:
    > a.. it is a regular habitual mode of life in a particular place;
    > b.. its continuity has persisted despite temporary absences;
    > c.. it may be of long or short duration;
    > d.. it must be lawful;
    > e.. it must have been adopted voluntarily;
    > f.. it must be for a settled purpose.
    > What exactly is an ordinary residence?

In simple terms, it's where your home is and where you spend most of
your time.

There is a page on the Home Office website describing it in more
detail:
http://www.ind.homeo-
ffice.gov.uk/default.asp?PageId=2557


There are no hard and fast rules - government bodies have polices to
assess ordinary residence in particular cases, but the final say in
any case always rests with the courts, if you're inclined to take
things that far.


    >Here is my situation:
    >- A British National by born in Hong Kong (UK) on 197x. (a BNO right?)

Unless your parents were foreign diplomats, you would have been born a
citizen of the UK & Colonies.

You would have become a British Dependent Territories citizen on 1
January 1983 (unless you had a UK born grandparent, in which case
you'd also have become a British citizen).

On 30 June 1997 you would have lost British Dependent Territories
citizenship, if your only connection to Britain's territories was
through Hong Kong.

People from Hong Kong had to register to claim British National
(Overseas) status before 1 July 1997 (it was possible to claim BN(O)
starting in 1987) if they wanted to keep some form of British
nationality.

To avoid statelessness, those from HK who did not claim British
National (Overseas) status *and* who did not have Chinese or any other
citizenship, became British Overseas citizens from 1 July 1997.

    >- An ordinarily resident in Hong Kong since birth then?
    >- NEVER have any other nationality or citizenship other than the one written
    > on my "UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND NORTHERN IRELAND" passport.

Have a look at the identity page of your passport. For your national
status, does it say 'British National (Overseas)' or 'British Overseas
citizen'

The two statuses are not the same.



    > No
    > tie to the Chinese government, no HKSAR Passport.

It's not about whether you have a HKSAR passport or not. It's about
whether you are a Chinese citizen under Chinese law.

Most people from Hong Kong who are ethnically Chinese *did* acquire
Chinese citizenship in 1997 and therefore cannot benefit from the
British concession on citizenship.

On the other hand, those from HK who are not ethnically Chinese will
almost universally *not* have Chinese nationality.


    >And I DO have a HK
    >Permanent ID with 3 stars.
    >It sounds to me that a lot of HK ppl are eligible to apply for the full
    >British Citizenship,

Only those of non-Chinese ancestry. Most who are eligible are
descendants of people from India who came to HK generations ago under
the British. the UK government estimates about 8000 eligible people
as far as I know, not all of who have registered up to now.


    > I'm in Canada (not a Canadian), at this point I'm
    > sending my application to the British High Commission in Ottawa. please
    > correct me if I'm wrong.


That's where any UK citizenship application should be sent from
someone physically in Canada. Although as nationality is within the
jurisdiction of the Home Office, they would forward the application to
the Home Office IND in Liverpool to be decided.

You can find links to the guidelines that Home Office caseworkers use
for applications of this type by visiting:
http://www.ind.homeo-
ffice.gov.uk/default.asp?PageId=1477



Jeremy
 
Old Oct 24th 2002, 11:09 pm
  #5  
Jaj
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Dear Jeremy :)

    >On Fri, 25 Oct 2002 10:18:08 GMT, "Jet Li" wrote:
    >And I DO have a HK
    >Permanent ID with 3 stars.

PS From the page:
http://www.ind.h-
omeoffice.gov.uk/default.asp?PageId=1949


4.7 Applicants of Chinese ancestry

4.1.1 If applicants produce Hong Kong Permanent Identity Cards which
have the symbol ***, it is almost certain that they are of Chinese
ancestry and are Chinese citizens (despite the official disclaimer in
Annex E). They should therefore be asked, regardless of where they are
applying, to contact the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region
Immigration Department for confirmation that they were not Chinese
citizens.

4.2.2 However, it should be noted that the issuing authority can
remove these asterisks at the holder's request and, therefore, their
absence is not conclusive proof that the holder was not a Chinese
citizen. Where it appears from the application form or other
information that applicants are wholly or partly of Chinese ancestry,
they should normally be required to obtain confirmation from the Hong
Kong Immigration Department that they were not Chinese citizens at
"the relevant date".

------

This is relevant because someone with Chinese (or any other
non-British) citizenship or nationality is ineligible to register as a
British citizen under the British Nationality (Hong Kong) Act 1997,
even if they have never held any non-British passport.

Jeremy
 
Old Oct 24th 2002, 11:28 pm
  #6  
Jet Li
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Dear Jeremy :)

"JAJ" wrote in message
news:[email protected]
net.au
...
    > >
    > >Referring to http-
    > >://www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk/default.asp?pageid=1199

    > >
    > >British courts have ruled that ordinary residence has the following
    > >features:
    > > a.. it is a regular habitual mode of life in a particular place;
    > > b.. its continuity has persisted despite temporary absences;
    > > c.. it may be of long or short duration;
    > > d.. it must be lawful;
    > > e.. it must have been adopted voluntarily;
    > > f.. it must be for a settled purpose.
    > > What exactly is an ordinary residence?
    > In simple terms, it's where your home is and where you spend most of
    > your time.

HONG KONG when it was under British Law...

    > There is a page on the Home Office website describing it in more
    > detail:
    > http://www.ind.hom-
    > eoffice.gov.uk/default.asp?PageId=2557

    > There are no hard and fast rules - government bodies have polices to
    > assess ordinary residence in particular cases, but the final say in
    > any case always rests with the courts, if you're inclined to take
    > things that far.
    > >
    > >Here is my situation:
    > >- A British National by born in Hong Kong (UK) on 197x. (a BNO right?)
    > Unless your parents were foreign diplomats, you would have been born a
    > citizen of the UK & Colonies.

So I would have been a citizen of the UK & Colonies then.

    > You would have become a British Dependent Territories citizen on 1
    > January 1983 (unless you had a UK born grandparent, in which case
    > you'd also have become a British citizen).
    > On 30 June 1997 you would have lost British Dependent Territories
    > citizenship, if your only connection to Britain's territories was
    > through Hong Kong.
    > People from Hong Kong had to register to claim British National
    > (Overseas) status before 1 July 1997 (it was possible to claim BN(O)
    > starting in 1987) if they wanted to keep some form of British
    > nationality.
    > To avoid statelessness, those from HK who did not claim British
    > National (Overseas) status *and* who did not have Chinese or any other
    > citizenship, became British Overseas citizens from 1 July 1997.

My mom & dad are Chinese citizens, so i become a citizen of China with
British National (Overseas) Passport?

    > >
    > >- An ordinarily resident in Hong Kong since birth then?
    > >
    > >
    > >- NEVER have any other nationality or citizenship other than the one
written
    > >on my "UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND NORTHERN IRELAND" passport.
    > Have a look at the identity page of your passport. For your national
    > status, does it say 'British National (Overseas)' or 'British Overseas
    > citizen'
    > The two statuses are not the same.

Mine said "British National (Overseas)", any imply to that?


    > > No tie to the Chinese government, no HKSAR Passport.
    > It's not about whether you have a HKSAR passport or not. It's about
    > whether you are a Chinese citizen under Chinese law.
    > Most people from Hong Kong who are ethnically Chinese *did* acquire
    > Chinese citizenship in 1997 and therefore cannot benefit from the
    > British concession on citizenship.
    > On the other hand, those from HK who are not ethnically Chinese will
    > almost universally *not* have Chinese nationality.
So my mom & dad are ethnically Chinese (so of course I am ethnically a
Chinese), and therefore, I do not benefit from the British concession on
citizenship?

    > >And I DO have a HK
    > >Permanent ID with 3 stars.
    > >
    > >It sounds to me that a lot of HK ppl are eligible to apply for the full
    > >British Citizenship,
    > Only those of non-Chinese ancestry. Most who are eligible are
    > descendants of people from India who came to HK generations ago under
    > the British. the UK government estimates about 8000 eligible people
    > as far as I know, not all of who have registered up to now.

OK... I'm not eligible then? It's more than clear now.

    > > I'm in Canada (not a Canadian), at this point I'm
    > > sending my application to the British High Commission in Ottawa. please
    > > correct me if I'm wrong.
    > That's where any UK citizenship application should be sent from
    > someone physically in Canada. Although as nationality is within the
    > jurisdiction of the Home Office, they would forward the application to
    > the Home Office IND in Liverpool to be decided.

So I can save the $650 for candies i guess?

    > You can find links to the guidelines that Home Office caseworkers use
    > for applications of this type by visiting:
    > http://www.ind.hom-
    > eoffice.gov.uk/default.asp?PageId=1477

    > Jeremy


FINAL QUESTION FOR YOU:

I've read from a Hong Kong news-media that someone is filing a lawsuit to
against the Britain Government on the BNO issue (British Nationality
Overseas) for Hong Kong People who born before July, 1997 and declared as
"British" instead of "Chinese". The complainant suggests that all BNOs
should have their right to live/work in UK or even to be treated as EU
citizens.
Have you hear of this news? Any update at all? The lawsuit has been settled
to EU Court of Human Right for several years but yet to have any decision...
 
Old Oct 24th 2002, 11:58 pm
  #7  
Jaj
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Dear Jeremy :)

    >On Fri, 25 Oct 2002 11:28:46 GMT, "Jet Li" wrote:

    >> >Here is my situation:
    >> >- A British National by born in Hong Kong (UK) on 197x. (a BNO right?)
    >> Unless your parents were foreign diplomats, you would have been born a
    >> citizen of the UK & Colonies.
    >So I would have been a citizen of the UK & Colonies then.

Yes.


    >My mom & dad are Chinese citizens, so i become a citizen of China with
    >British National (Overseas) Passport?

I think you probably were a Chinese citizen all along.

You have Chinese citizenship (with right of abode in HKSAR) although
you don't carry the HKSAR passport. And you hold UK nationality, in
the form of British National (Overseas) and carry a passport in that
respect.


    >> >- NEVER have any other nationality or citizenship other than the one
    >written
    >> >on my "UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND NORTHERN IRELAND" passport.
    >> Have a look at the identity page of your passport. For your national
    >> status, does it say 'British National (Overseas)' or 'British Overseas
    >> citizen'
    >> The two statuses are not the same.
    >Mine said "British National (Overseas)", any imply to that?


It means you're BN(O). Simple as that. Visa free travel is better on
the BN(O) passport as compared to a British Overseas citizen passport.



    >So my mom & dad are ethnically Chinese (so of course I am ethnically a
    >Chinese), and therefore, I do not benefit from the British concession on
    >citizenship?
    >OK... I'm not eligible then? It's more than clear now.

Unfortunately for you, it looks like you are not eligible. Even if
you could get confirmation you're not a Chinese citizen, living in
Canada rather than Hong Kong would disqualify you from applying now.




    >So I can save the $650 for candies i guess?

I would think so.


    >FINAL QUESTION FOR YOU:
    >I've read from a Hong Kong news-media that someone is filing a lawsuit to
    >against the Britain Government on the BNO issue (British Nationality
    >Overseas) for Hong Kong People who born before July, 1997 and declared as
    >"British" instead of "Chinese". The complainant suggests that all BNOs
    >should have their right to live/work in UK or even to be treated as EU
    >citizens.
    >Have you hear of this news? Any update at all? The lawsuit has been settled
    >to EU Court of Human Right for several years but yet to have any decision...

There have been at least one case of this type in the European Court
of Justice (which is the EU court - not to be confused with the
so-called European Court of Human Rights, a separate organisation)
testing EU legislation, but I've not heard of one specifically
referring to a BN(O).

The UK declares as its nationals for EU puposes:
- British citizens (other than those solely connected with the Channel
Islands and Isle of Man)
- British overseas territories citizens connected with Gibralter
- British subjects with a right of abode in the UK (generally those
connected with Southern Ireland pre 1949).

Here's a relevant link:
http://www.lawreports.co.uk/ecjfeb0-
.2.htm


Jeremy
 
Old Oct 25th 2002, 1:05 am
  #8  
The Wizzard
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Dear Jeremy :)

    > > > I'm in Canada (not a Canadian), at this point I'm
    > > > sending my application to the British High Commission in Ottawa. please
    > > > correct me if I'm wrong.
    > >
and whatever your status youc ant send an application there, they will just
send it backa nd tell you to send it to the CHC London. you cant apply to
any post *in* Canada for skilled worker, if you are legally in Canada and
staying ther eyou could apply while in Canada by sending yoru application to
Buffalo in the USA, or if you are trying to do it as a British Citizen (if
you are) then you need to send it to London otherwise you need to send it to
Hong kong.
 
Old Oct 26th 2002, 11:02 am
  #9  
Jaj
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Dear Jeremy :)

Wizzard
I think this thread was about applying for British citizenship
(off-topic for the Canadian NG) not Canadian immigration.

Jeremy

    >On Fri, 25 Oct 2002 14:05:19 +0100, "The Wizzard" wrote:
    >> > > I'm in Canada (not a Canadian), at this point I'm
    >> > > sending my application to the British High Commission in Ottawa. please
    >> > > correct me if I'm wrong.
    >> >
    >and whatever your status youc ant send an application there, they will just
    >send it backa nd tell you to send it to the CHC London. you cant apply to
    >any post *in* Canada for skilled worker, if you are legally in Canada and
    >staying ther eyou could apply while in Canada by sending yoru application to
    >Buffalo in the USA, or if you are trying to do it as a British Citizen (if
    >you are) then you need to send it to London otherwise you need to send it to
    >Hong kong.
 

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