hobgoblins

Found the answer regarding residency card expiry date in an older thread but the edit button as well as the quote button appear to not be working ….

wolfi

I don't get it - will the EU have similar rules and you'll have to pay like in the UK?
My sister and her children are probably very happy that they have British passports too bedides their German ones.

hobgoblins

I would imagine Wolfi that EU countries will reciprocate like for like.
​​​​​​​The cynic in me thinks that it could be a joint plan for raising extra cash … or May will announce later that this has been cancelled after reaching an agreement with the EU …. neither scenario would surprise me !!

Pilis Nemzeti Park Fella

Unfortunately we all know what it means already. The UK only uprates pensions annually in a handful of countries outside EU/EEA.

scrubbedexpat142

Went to the "town hall" meeting tonight.

The meeting was live streamed to Facebook & content will be available on the Embassy's website.

Good statements from Secretary of State in the PM's office - pragmatic, conciliatory and constructive.

Obviously the whole thing limited by the current uncertainty.

2 quick points that arise during the Q & A - Change UK driving license to Hungarian one asap.

Also some confusion over the swap of existing registrations / residence permits for new ones. What I took away is that this will have to be done, the question is when, immediately in case of no deal, by end of 2020 if withdrawal agreement goes through.

Would be good to keep an eye on this one!

Pilis Nemzeti Park Fella

Probably a good point - unless you are of a certain age! You can renew your UK DL online and get 10 years extra (until you are 70, when UK DLs have to be renewed every 3 years).

Whereas the Hungarian DL has to be renewed every 5 years once you hit 50 and every 3 (?) years once you hit 60. Too much hassle the Hungarian way. If I already had residence I'd keep the UK DL until I hit 70 (as existing residents should see their rights protected)...

Peter_in_Hungary

I was also at the meeting last night.
The 'take away' message was get your Hungarian paperwork in order. This was from both the British Ambassador (BA) and the Hungarian Minister of State. (HM)
It was stated that there were about 8 -10,000 Brits in Hungary, the number is uncertain as it is recognised that there are a good number (up to 2,000?) who live here without bothering to get residency. The message to them was life will be very difficult without the proper paperwork.

For those with residency there will be a need to change your residency card from an EU national residency card to a '3rd country' residency card. This will need to be done at either Dec. 2020 or March 29th depending on deal or no deal (or some other date depending on events!) The HM stressed that this was not reapplying for residency but just a document swap.

The strong message from the HM was get your residency now because if the UK leaves without a deal then it will be more difficult after - which means potentially the what-not hits the fan on 29th March. The HM stated that residency should take about 30 days to get through the system.

The HM clarified the driving licence issue saying that under Hungarian rules (after Brexit) you can use your driving licence for 1 year after which you must get a Hungarian licence. But his strong advice was if you are living here as a resident and still using your UK licence then get it exchanged ASAP.

I questioned the BA about pensions and he stated that there was a commitment top uprate the pensions until 2020 and beyond if the deal before parliament now passes. However if the deal fails then what happens after 2020 is unknown and will depend upon any arrangement subsequently made. I asked the BA about the implications of the Vienna Convention on the pension issue and he could not answer so I gave him a copy of the relevant part and he said he would get clarification.

The Vienna Convention (signed by the UK in 1970) covers the law of treaties and sets out the conduct between countries entering a treaty. The relevant part is Article 70 which deals with the termination of a treaty and states that termination does not affect the obligations of the parties created by the treaty prior to its termination. Since the UK was obliged to uprate pensions under EU rules my interpretation would be that this obligation should continue after termination of the treaty (Brexit) - but probably only for those already resident in the EU by Dec. 2020 or March 29th if there is no deal. It is quite clear (from UK parliamentary papers) that the UK does not uprate pensions to those abroad unless it is forced to do so as a cost saving measure.

The HM said that Hungary respected the decision of the referendum - but did not like it and also said that the UK had been a supporter of Hungary within the EU. (implying to me that Hungary will miss the UKs support in Brussels). Apart from the 8-10,000 Brits living in Hungary which Hungary saw as an asset to the country he also said that UK firms provided 60,000 jobs to the Hungarian economy and so was an important trading partner and Hungary would be (is) very keen to keep good relations with the UK.

For me a disappointment was the number of time reciprocity was mentioned. The implication is that if the deal fails then any further arrangements made will depend upon reciprocal arrangements. So whilst the UK has stressed that the rights of UK citizens living in the EU are paramount when it comes to it they will be used a disposable pawns and the UK will not give its citizens in the EU support of its own volition (especially if there is a cost involved). An example here would be the continued (unilateral) support of pensioners health care after Brexit if there is no deal. - But did I expect anything else, not really!

There will be another town hall meeting at the end of Feb or beginning of March when things may (or may not) be clearer.

Pilis Nemzeti Park Fella

Interesting point about Vienna Convention. Personally, I doubt if this would stop the UK from ceasing to uprate pensions after 2020, they'd just do it until forced otherwise to reinstate the uprating. UK expats resident in Aus & NZ have repeatedly (over several decades) tried to get pension uprating instated with plenty of good points in law, or so it seems to me - but the UK has until now just ignored them.

scrubbedexpat142

A recent answer from my MP in the UK made clear his opinion that any problems experienced by British citizens in the EU will be entirely the fault of the EU / host Country.

I think that we have to assume the UK State pensions will be frozen after 2020 and plan accordingly.

scrubbedexpat142

We don't know any British (apart from having met the BA socially when he was first here) in Hungary so sitting in the middle of 200 or so Brits was quite unnerving!

Peter_in_Hungary

A pensioner from S. Africa went to court on this matter some time back and it went all the way to the top. She lost. Part of the reasoning judgment was that she had never received uprating increases so had not lost any right but rather she was asking for a new right. The same applies to the Aussie and NZ situation. The situation for Brits resident in the EU until Brexit is fundamentally different. We have the right of an uprated pension and the Vienna Convention states that rights under a treaty should be maintained after the treaty is terminated. Not to continue with uprating would be the removal of a right we have today. There is the provision under the Convention for obligations of a terminating party not to continue with their obligations but this has to be agreed by both sides - so the EU would have to agree to any cessation of the UKs obligations- Just my understanding of the situation.

There are statements from the UK government on this matter that say the UK only uprates pensions abroad where they are required to do so. I guess we will have to wait and see - but I expect the UK to wriggle out of uprating if they can.

Some work on estimating the cost of uprating vs. not has been done and as I remember the calculation included an estimate of how many pensioners would return to the UK (and the social cost of this) if pensions were not uprated. There are about 450,000 pensioners in the EU some of them there because they can not afford a life style in the UK on a state pension only. especially if health care cover is removed. If I remember the results correctly the calculation was that it could actually cost more over time not to uprate pensions due to the additional cost of returning pensioners unable to afford health care and to live in the EU with a flat-line pension.

scrubbedexpat142

Peter, you are applying logic, something the Govt. struggles with!

Having said that, 450,000 pensioners returning to the UK - that'll smash the immigration targets & put the NHS into meltdown!

scrubbedexpat142

Transcript

Peter_in_Hungary

So TMs deal was kicked out 202 to 432 - a defeat at the top end of expectations and a motion of no confidence tabled by JC (no - not that one) I mean Jeremy.

What are the odds on out on the 29th March being delayed??

scrubbedexpat142

Less than even.