UK citizen moving with Chinese wife
Jul 16th 2018, 6:32 pm
#16
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Re: UK citizen moving with Chinese wife
The earnings would be transferred to France as and when needed. My earnings all go into my bank in England and are transferred to China as and when needed. The problem with being self employed with 'online' jobs is that often income doesn't come into the country you live in. Not sure if there are rules to take into account these kinds of things. Proof of resources sounds fine enough but they don't say what they need to be.
Yeah they certainly don't want to give information about that. Unlike the UK visa which has very specific details regarding that. I guess that's the culture difference. Thanks for your help anyway.
Yeah they certainly don't want to give information about that. Unlike the UK visa which has very specific details regarding that. I guess that's the culture difference. Thanks for your help anyway.
Following on from ET's post, I would research the consequences of your wife setting up a business and keeping her earnings in China. The Fisc would look askance at your own financial arrangements and the UK is still in the EU - a red flag would surely go up for a non-EU country.
Jul 17th 2018, 5:55 am
#17
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Re: UK citizen moving with Chinese wife
Well, what EU citizens have is the RIGHT TO freedom of movement. Rights are automatically linked with obligations, or at least in France they are (droits et devoirs) and I would think in most people's minds, so normally if you want to exercise a right, one of the first things you do is find out what the associated obligations are. Rights don't usually mean "carte blanche", or at least not in the EU.
Re banks and business income, I think you might be hoping for a bit more flexibility than French rules allow for. If you say you run a business in France, the prefecture isn't interested in a UK bank statement showing an un-itemised credit balance and you explaining you don't keep French accounts because you run your business in sterling. What they expect is a set of business records that complies with French fiscal requirements, designed so that they can easily verify a business' turnover, ie match up each credit payment into your designated French business account (obligatory for a micro entrepreneur) with the corresponding invoice (in euros), and if they're feeling super keen, check that the service invoiced for is the service that you're registered to provide and that the invoice has all the obligatory mentions légales on it. It's how France works. Droits et devoirs, rights and obligations, you meet your obligations to the state and the state will meet its obligations towards you, or alternatively, you don't bother with the rules and the state won't bother granting you any rights.
In fact as far as business accounts go it's not hard to comply. I also work online, for clients across the EU and some outside it. Mostly I can get the payments into my French business account (PayPal, SEPA transfers etc), and for the few that pay in the UK, I simply calculate the exchange rate on the day the payment is received in sterling, and create a euro invoice to that amount on my system; that way my turnover figure always reflects actual turnover.
You don't need to earn megabucks, just enough to be self supporting (ie enough to pay a decent level of social security contributions so that you're not being subsidised by other workers).
Re banks and business income, I think you might be hoping for a bit more flexibility than French rules allow for. If you say you run a business in France, the prefecture isn't interested in a UK bank statement showing an un-itemised credit balance and you explaining you don't keep French accounts because you run your business in sterling. What they expect is a set of business records that complies with French fiscal requirements, designed so that they can easily verify a business' turnover, ie match up each credit payment into your designated French business account (obligatory for a micro entrepreneur) with the corresponding invoice (in euros), and if they're feeling super keen, check that the service invoiced for is the service that you're registered to provide and that the invoice has all the obligatory mentions légales on it. It's how France works. Droits et devoirs, rights and obligations, you meet your obligations to the state and the state will meet its obligations towards you, or alternatively, you don't bother with the rules and the state won't bother granting you any rights.
In fact as far as business accounts go it's not hard to comply. I also work online, for clients across the EU and some outside it. Mostly I can get the payments into my French business account (PayPal, SEPA transfers etc), and for the few that pay in the UK, I simply calculate the exchange rate on the day the payment is received in sterling, and create a euro invoice to that amount on my system; that way my turnover figure always reflects actual turnover.
You don't need to earn megabucks, just enough to be self supporting (ie enough to pay a decent level of social security contributions so that you're not being subsidised by other workers).
Jul 17th 2018, 5:57 am
#18
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Re: UK citizen moving with Chinese wife
Out of interest, I clicked on "où s'adresser" in the above link and it only gives the French Départements with the telephone/mail address/site of the Service-Etranger of the Préfecture selected. If you know where you'll be living, you could contact them. It may be that Préfectures differ as to the financial conditions, which might explain why no figures are given nationally.
Following on from ET's post, I would research the consequences of your wife setting up a business and keeping her earnings in China. The Fisc would look askance at your own financial arrangements and the UK is still in the EU - a red flag would surely go up for a non-EU country.
Following on from ET's post, I would research the consequences of your wife setting up a business and keeping her earnings in China. The Fisc would look askance at your own financial arrangements and the UK is still in the EU - a red flag would surely go up for a non-EU country.
Jul 17th 2018, 7:25 am
#19
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Re: UK citizen moving with Chinese wife
I don't think it's really about being "modern", it's about transparency and accountability and responsibility and all that. If modern means unregulated then France never will be modern, because it is never going to go down the unregulated route.
One of the criteria for residence here is that France is the centre of your economic interests. If your economic interests are in fact entirely elsewhere, the question might arise as to why you would want to apply for residence in France.
I don't know about Chinese business structures but would it not be possible, for instance, for your wife to retain a company (personne morale) in China, and that company employs her (personne physique) in France? The turnover would then stay in China and be subject to corporate tax there, or whatever they have, and her salary ie personal earned income would be subject to social security deductions and tax in France. All requirements met and everybody happy. That's what a UK person would do if they wanted to move to France but keep trading in the UK as a UK business.
Being a student might work, although obviously you would still have to prove sufficient ressources and health coverage for both of you.
https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizen...n/index_fr.htm
At the end of the day, if you live in France you have to accept that that will make you subject French legislation. Moving to a country whose laws don't suit you, is going to be a square peg / round hole scenario. It's a fact that France is far more tightly regulated than many EU countries, especially where running a business is concerned.
One of the criteria for residence here is that France is the centre of your economic interests. If your economic interests are in fact entirely elsewhere, the question might arise as to why you would want to apply for residence in France.
I don't know about Chinese business structures but would it not be possible, for instance, for your wife to retain a company (personne morale) in China, and that company employs her (personne physique) in France? The turnover would then stay in China and be subject to corporate tax there, or whatever they have, and her salary ie personal earned income would be subject to social security deductions and tax in France. All requirements met and everybody happy. That's what a UK person would do if they wanted to move to France but keep trading in the UK as a UK business.
Being a student might work, although obviously you would still have to prove sufficient ressources and health coverage for both of you.
https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizen...n/index_fr.htm
Si vous êtes étudiant
Si vous êtes étudiant et vivez dans un autre pays de l'UE, votre conjoint, vos enfants et petits-enfants à charge peuvent séjourner avec vous, à condition que:- vous soyez inscrit dans un établissement d'enseignement agréé;
- vous disposiez d'un revenu suffisant pour subvenir aux besoins de toute votre famille sans demander d'aide financière;
- vous ayez souscrit une assurance maladie complète pour toute votre famille dans votre pays d'accueil.
At the end of the day, if you live in France you have to accept that that will make you subject French legislation. Moving to a country whose laws don't suit you, is going to be a square peg / round hole scenario. It's a fact that France is far more tightly regulated than many EU countries, especially where running a business is concerned.
Jul 17th 2018, 7:42 am
#20
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Re: UK citizen moving with Chinese wife
There was mention of "étudiant" in one of the above links which you could check on, but how are you going to prove to the Authorities that you've enough ressources (and healthcare coverage) for yourself and later, your wife? You'd have to research as to whether you can have Student Status AND run a business structure to ensure income. But the first thing would be to find a Uni course which would accept you (it's probably a mess at the moment with BAC holders applying for any places still available).
The latest figures for the Poverty Threshold in France (sorry, I can't find the link, google "INSEE seuil de pauvreté") give just over 20 000 € p.a. for a single person which isn't far off the figure required to sponsor someone in the UK. Without the financial conditions being written down in black and white, if your expected "take-home" income is above that figure, your own Résidence should be granted.
Jul 17th 2018, 7:45 am
#21
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Re: UK citizen moving with Chinese wife
I don't think it's really about being "modern", it's about transparency and accountability and responsibility and all that. If modern means unregulated then France never will be modern, because it is never going to go down the unregulated route.
One of the criteria for residence here is that France is the centre of your economic interests. If your economic interests are in fact entirely elsewhere, the question might arise as to why you would want to apply for residence in France.
I don't know about Chinese business structures but would it not be possible, for instance, for your wife to retain a company (personne morale) in China, and that company employs her (personne physique) in France? The turnover would then stay in China and be subject to corporate tax there, or whatever they have, and her salary ie personal earned income would be subject to social security deductions and tax in France. All requirements met and everybody happy. That's what a UK person would do if they wanted to move to France but keep trading in the UK as a UK business.
Being a student might work, although obviously you would still have to prove sufficient ressources and health coverage for both of you.
https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizen...n/index_fr.htmSi vous êtes étudiant
Si vous êtes étudiant et vivez dans un autre pays de l'UE, votre conjoint, vos enfants et petits-enfants à charge peuvent séjourner avec vous, à condition que:
At the end of the day, if you live in France you have to accept that that will make you subject French legislation. Moving to a country whose laws don't suit you, is going to be a square peg / round hole scenario. It's a fact that France is far more tightly regulated than many EU countries, especially where running a business is concerned.
One of the criteria for residence here is that France is the centre of your economic interests. If your economic interests are in fact entirely elsewhere, the question might arise as to why you would want to apply for residence in France.
I don't know about Chinese business structures but would it not be possible, for instance, for your wife to retain a company (personne morale) in China, and that company employs her (personne physique) in France? The turnover would then stay in China and be subject to corporate tax there, or whatever they have, and her salary ie personal earned income would be subject to social security deductions and tax in France. All requirements met and everybody happy. That's what a UK person would do if they wanted to move to France but keep trading in the UK as a UK business.
Being a student might work, although obviously you would still have to prove sufficient ressources and health coverage for both of you.
https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizen...n/index_fr.htmSi vous êtes étudiant
Si vous êtes étudiant et vivez dans un autre pays de l'UE, votre conjoint, vos enfants et petits-enfants à charge peuvent séjourner avec vous, à condition que:
- vous soyez inscrit dans un établissement d'enseignement agréé;
- vous disposiez d'un revenu suffisant pour subvenir aux besoins de toute votre famille sans demander d'aide financière;
- vous ayez souscrit une assurance maladie complète pour toute votre famille dans votre pays d'accueil.
At the end of the day, if you live in France you have to accept that that will make you subject French legislation. Moving to a country whose laws don't suit you, is going to be a square peg / round hole scenario. It's a fact that France is far more tightly regulated than many EU countries, especially where running a business is concerned.
I found the application form which literally doesn't appear to ask for anything. I'm assuming you can read French otherwise there's also a 100% English version. https://static.tlscontact.com/media/...ong_sejour.pdf
Last edited by hasen; Jul 17th 2018 at 7:59 am.
Jul 17th 2018, 7:49 am
#22
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Re: UK citizen moving with Chinese wife
You're losing me.
There was mention of "étudiant" in one of the above links which you could check on, but how are you going to prove to the Authorities that you've enough ressources (and healthcare coverage) for yourself and later, your wife? You'd have to research as to whether you can have Student Status AND run a business structure to ensure income. But the first thing would be to find a Uni course which would accept you (it's probably a mess at the moment with BAC holders applying for any places still available).
The latest figures for the Poverty Threshold in France (sorry, I can't find the link, google "INSEE seuil de pauvreté") give just over 20 000 € p.a. for a single person which isn't far off the figure required to sponsor someone in the UK. Without the financial conditions being written down in black and white, if your expected "take-home" income is above that figure, your own Résidence should be granted.
There was mention of "étudiant" in one of the above links which you could check on, but how are you going to prove to the Authorities that you've enough ressources (and healthcare coverage) for yourself and later, your wife? You'd have to research as to whether you can have Student Status AND run a business structure to ensure income. But the first thing would be to find a Uni course which would accept you (it's probably a mess at the moment with BAC holders applying for any places still available).
The latest figures for the Poverty Threshold in France (sorry, I can't find the link, google "INSEE seuil de pauvreté") give just over 20 000 € p.a. for a single person which isn't far off the figure required to sponsor someone in the UK. Without the financial conditions being written down in black and white, if your expected "take-home" income is above that figure, your own Résidence should be granted.
For the UK spouse visa you can prove your ability to sustain yourself by salary amount but also by savings. Granted it is very high at £60,000 but the option is at least there. France does not have this at all to your knowledge? I haven't come across it but we haven't come across much regarding this at all though.
Last edited by hasen; Jul 17th 2018 at 8:03 am.
Jul 17th 2018, 7:50 am
#23
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Re: UK citizen moving with Chinese wife
As said previously.
Your wife is applying for residence as your dependent. They won't look into her financial situation at all at that point. Provided you are living here "legally", she is entitled to join you - regardless of whether she has any income of not.
Her carte de séjour will give her the right to work in France and French business rules will only apply from the point she wants to start to be economically active in France, same as they do for anyone else here who starts a business.
You do need to think a bit long term because her visa will have to keep being renewed, it's not just a one-off thing. Also, post Brexit you will yourself need an official droit de séjour as the right to freedom of movement will end; the current position seems to be that Brits in the EU will be allowed to stay, and after 5 years continuous legal residence they will still qualify for a permanent droit au séjour as they do now. So you will still need to keep your ducks in a row once you are here, to make sure you are allowed to stay.
Your wife is applying for residence as your dependent. They won't look into her financial situation at all at that point. Provided you are living here "legally", she is entitled to join you - regardless of whether she has any income of not.
Her carte de séjour will give her the right to work in France and French business rules will only apply from the point she wants to start to be economically active in France, same as they do for anyone else here who starts a business.
You do need to think a bit long term because her visa will have to keep being renewed, it's not just a one-off thing. Also, post Brexit you will yourself need an official droit de séjour as the right to freedom of movement will end; the current position seems to be that Brits in the EU will be allowed to stay, and after 5 years continuous legal residence they will still qualify for a permanent droit au séjour as they do now. So you will still need to keep your ducks in a row once you are here, to make sure you are allowed to stay.
Last edited by EuroTrash; Jul 17th 2018 at 8:14 am.
Jul 17th 2018, 8:35 am
#24
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Re: UK citizen moving with Chinese wife
Also if you think about it would be somewhat weird. She lives in China and she will be when she applies for the visa for France, so why would all her earnings already be going into a France bank account? All that you've said may make sense after she's already been living in France for a while but not at the point she applies for the visa. It's all about proving your income prior to moving to said country. Like for example in the UK if you are self employed they ask for your last tax return to prove your current income. But in real terms that can effectively be 2 years ago.
I found the application form which literally doesn't appear to ask for anything. I'm assuming you can read French otherwise there's also a 100% English version. https://static.tlscontact.com/media/...ong_sejour.pdf
I found the application form which literally doesn't appear to ask for anything. I'm assuming you can read French otherwise there's also a 100% English version. https://static.tlscontact.com/media/...ong_sejour.pdf
The form isn't asking for specifics, but your details will be entered in Nos. 28 et seq, and you will come under scrutiny. This will be impossible if you aren't already resident in France with a bona fide address, "moyens d'existence", healthcare cover, etc...
As said, you must get out of the China (and UK) mindset, and take on board how things are in France. Which brings me back to wondering why you've chosen France, surely the most complicated Bureaucracy in Europe?
P.S. I thought the Visa route to the UK involved an annual income of about £18 600 for the sponsor... No idea whether savings are taken into account by the French Authorities. Certainly not by potential landlords, as a bank balance can be emptied from one day to the next....
Jul 17th 2018, 8:56 am
#25
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Re: UK citizen moving with Chinese wife
Did you read the EU link on students? EU freedom of movement rules are 100% based on status, because each status has its own criteria. How it works in China isn't really relevant here. In any case, French tuition fees are very very low.
I honestly am baffled as to why this is such a headache. If you are in a position to support yourselves sustainably and pay your way, all above board, you will get a visa. France is not unreasonable about these things, it prides itself on treating people fairly (which of course includes protecting its own taxpayers, hence why it doesn't grant residence to incomers who risk becoming a burden on society). If you don't earn enough to support yourselves, why would you even want to come here to live in poverty. The sticking point seems to be that you seem to want to keep your business arrangements out of the picture, but that's not possible because how can France make an informed decision if it can't make an objective assessment of your situation. A person can't simply say they have x amount of income from an unspecified source (unless of course you're a dodgy Russian who wants to live in London) because that would leave the door open to money laundering or working on the black or criminal activities or anything. And if, technically, your income comes from running a business in your host country, then it's not unreasonable is it to insist on that business being fully legal in compliance with your host country's business legislation.
I honestly am baffled as to why this is such a headache. If you are in a position to support yourselves sustainably and pay your way, all above board, you will get a visa. France is not unreasonable about these things, it prides itself on treating people fairly (which of course includes protecting its own taxpayers, hence why it doesn't grant residence to incomers who risk becoming a burden on society). If you don't earn enough to support yourselves, why would you even want to come here to live in poverty. The sticking point seems to be that you seem to want to keep your business arrangements out of the picture, but that's not possible because how can France make an informed decision if it can't make an objective assessment of your situation. A person can't simply say they have x amount of income from an unspecified source (unless of course you're a dodgy Russian who wants to live in London) because that would leave the door open to money laundering or working on the black or criminal activities or anything. And if, technically, your income comes from running a business in your host country, then it's not unreasonable is it to insist on that business being fully legal in compliance with your host country's business legislation.
Last edited by EuroTrash; Jul 17th 2018 at 9:00 am.
Jul 17th 2018, 9:15 am
#26
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Re: UK citizen moving with Chinese wife
Did you read the EU link on students? EU freedom of movement rules are 100% based on status, because each status has its own criteria. How it works in China isn't really relevant here. In any case, French tuition fees are very very low.
I honestly am baffled as to why this is such a headache. If you are in a position to support yourselves sustainably and pay your way, all above board, you will get a visa. France is not unreasonable about these things, it prides itself on treating people fairly (which of course includes protecting its own taxpayers, hence why it doesn't grant residence to incomers who risk becoming a burden on society). If you don't earn enough to support yourselves, why would you even want to come here to live in poverty. The sticking point seems to be that you seem to want to keep your business arrangements out of the picture, but that's not possible because how can France make an informed decision if it can't make an objective assessment of your situation. A person can't simply say they have x amount of income from an unspecified source (unless of course you're a dodgy Russian who wants to live in London) because that would leave the door open to money laundering or working on the black or criminal activities or anything. And if, technically, your income comes from running a business in your host country, then it's not unreasonable is it to insist on that business being fully legal in compliance with your host country's business legislation.
I honestly am baffled as to why this is such a headache. If you are in a position to support yourselves sustainably and pay your way, all above board, you will get a visa. France is not unreasonable about these things, it prides itself on treating people fairly (which of course includes protecting its own taxpayers, hence why it doesn't grant residence to incomers who risk becoming a burden on society). If you don't earn enough to support yourselves, why would you even want to come here to live in poverty. The sticking point seems to be that you seem to want to keep your business arrangements out of the picture, but that's not possible because how can France make an informed decision if it can't make an objective assessment of your situation. A person can't simply say they have x amount of income from an unspecified source (unless of course you're a dodgy Russian who wants to live in London) because that would leave the door open to money laundering or working on the black or criminal activities or anything. And if, technically, your income comes from running a business in your host country, then it's not unreasonable is it to insist on that business being fully legal in compliance with your host country's business legislation.
I've been accused of assuming wrongly in the past, and hesitate to assume anything here, but it sounds as though the OP's income and means of obtaining it are acceptable for residence in China, but inadequate for France (or the UK as he mentioned right at the beginning), and this seems to be the cause of the head-ache.
Jul 17th 2018, 9:29 am
#27
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Re: UK citizen moving with Chinese wife
Did you read the EU link on students? EU freedom of movement rules are 100% based on status, because each status has its own criteria. How it works in China isn't really relevant here. In any case, French tuition fees are very very low.
I honestly am baffled as to why this is such a headache. If you are in a position to support yourselves sustainably and pay your way, all above board, you will get a visa.
I honestly am baffled as to why this is such a headache. If you are in a position to support yourselves sustainably and pay your way, all above board, you will get a visa.
France is not unreasonable about these things, it prides itself on treating people fairly (which of course includes protecting its own taxpayers, hence why it doesn't grant residence to incomers who risk becoming a burden on society). If you don't earn enough to support yourselves, why would you even want to come here to live in poverty.
The sticking point seems to be that you seem to want to keep your business arrangements out of the picture, but that's not possible because how can France make an informed decision if it can't make an objective assessment of your situation. A person can't simply say they have x amount of income from an unspecified source (unless of course you're a dodgy Russian who wants to live in London) because that would leave the door open to money laundering or working on the black or criminal activities or anything. And if, technically, your income comes from running a business in your host country, then it's not unreasonable is it to insist on that business being fully legal in compliance with your host country's business legislation.
Last edited by hasen; Jul 17th 2018 at 9:50 am.
Jul 17th 2018, 9:40 am
#28
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Re: UK citizen moving with Chinese wife
Your assumption is correct.
The form isn't asking for specifics, but your details will be entered in Nos. 28 et seq, and you will come under scrutiny. This will be impossible if you aren't already resident in France with a bona fide address, "moyens d'existence", healthcare cover, etc...
As said, you must get out of the China (and UK) mindset, and take on board how things are in France. Which brings me back to wondering why you've chosen France, surely the most complicated Bureaucracy in Europe?
P.S. I thought the Visa route to the UK involved an annual income of about £18 600 for the sponsor... No idea whether savings are taken into account by the French Authorities. Certainly not by potential landlords, as a bank balance can be emptied from one day to the next....
The form isn't asking for specifics, but your details will be entered in Nos. 28 et seq, and you will come under scrutiny. This will be impossible if you aren't already resident in France with a bona fide address, "moyens d'existence", healthcare cover, etc...
As said, you must get out of the China (and UK) mindset, and take on board how things are in France. Which brings me back to wondering why you've chosen France, surely the most complicated Bureaucracy in Europe?
P.S. I thought the Visa route to the UK involved an annual income of about £18 600 for the sponsor... No idea whether savings are taken into account by the French Authorities. Certainly not by potential landlords, as a bank balance can be emptied from one day to the next....
Also regarding no 29, surely this is her application form so how can she be already in France before she applies for her visa? Also since they don't ask for anything more how can they be scrutinised. Even when I applied for my Chinese visa they asked for many attachments as proof otherwise they can't really check anything.
I've been accused of assuming wrongly in the past, and hesitate to assume anything here, but it sounds as though the OP's income and means of obtaining it are acceptable for residence in China, but inadequate for France (or the UK as he mentioned right at the beginning), and this seems to be the cause of the head-ache.
As for the UK, they require either a normal job earning 20k+ or 60k in savings. So unfortunately we don't have either of those.
Last edited by hasen; Jul 17th 2018 at 9:44 am.
Jul 17th 2018, 9:53 am
#29
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Re: UK citizen moving with Chinese wife
Btw I've been so busy discussing things and trying to figure it all out with you guys, I forgot to say thanks again. Certainly much more helpful than trying to find information by searching. So often people who have been through the processes or similar processes can give you more insight than anywhere else. When my wife gets back we'll go to the embassy here in China and see if they have any more concrete details but I'm not confident!
Jul 17th 2018, 10:12 am
#30
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Re: UK citizen moving with Chinese wife
Yes that's what I'm trying to find out, how it is in France, but like you say 'no idea'
Also regarding no 29, surely this is her application form so how can she be already in France before she applies for her visa? Also since they don't ask for anything more how can they be scrutinised.
As for the UK, they require either a normal job earning 20k+ or 60k in savings. So unfortunately we don't have either of those.
Also regarding no 29, surely this is her application form so how can she be already in France before she applies for her visa? Also since they don't ask for anything more how can they be scrutinised.
As for the UK, they require either a normal job earning 20k+ or 60k in savings. So unfortunately we don't have either of those.
- I've forgotten the pertinent numbers, but your wife must fill in the name and details of her "sponsor" in France and her legal tie to him. Obviously she'll be doing this in China while you'll have arrived in France already, with everything set up. The French Authorities will check on you before issuing her a Visa.
- Unfortunately this is what I assumed - if you yourself are on what the French would call the poverty threshold, they'd be dubious about your being able to sustain your wife. And as ET rightly wonders, who would want to move to another country and live in poverty?
This isn't what you're hoping to hear, but, as said, this isn't China, nor the UK.
If you're really set on moving to France, then you should consider how to increase your income (and accept to be separated from your wife for several months....)