hasen

I'm planning to move to France with my wife (if it's feasible) since it's too difficult to move to the UK with her(!) I'm not sure if it's gonna be possible to move to the France either though which is why I'm enquiring here. We're both self employed with work from home jobs so wherever in the world we live it would not affect our earnings. My wife and I don't have much savings and we don't earn a huge amount either so I'm most interested to know what the financial requirements are for her acquiring a long term France visa. This information I've as yet been unable to find so not sure if they have any set requirements for savings and/or salary like the UK does? I've been unable to find these figures.

Thanks in advance.

dmu

Hi, and welcome to the forum!
Where are you at the moment? If you aren't intending to use France as a stepping stone to eventually live in the UK via the Surinder Singh route (in which case we can give pointers), I'd advise your wife to consult the nearest French Consulate to find out the conditions for a long-term Visa here. Bearing in mind the unknown consequences of Brexit, it might be a good idea for you to come here soon, to set your own Residency and French business structure up before the deadline.
HTH

hasen

We're both in China at the moment. I haven't really thought about the eventual route to the UK, just thinking about getting to France at the moment which I'm sure will be hard enough in itself. I haven't had much luck contacting anyone about this visa regarding financial requirements, that's why I'm asking here. I've really been unable to find if there are any requirements for earnings, savings etc and what those amounts are. Do I or her even have to be in employment? What if one of us is not? I'm hoping someone as a British expat has some kind of experience with moving to Europe with a non EU wife can shed some light on this.

What do you mean by French business structure? What exactly is that and is it necessary to be successful in moving to France?

dmu

Hi, Haven't you found anything on an official French Embassy link? There have been enquiries on the forum in the past about EU-citizens bringing their non-EU spouses to France, but they have never given any feedback....
I'll have to look for links concerning conditions for non-EU spouses joining their EU-spouses in France, but they will all be in French.
People working at home have to set up a Micro-Entreprise in order to be able to work legally, wherever their clients happen to be in the world. You have to contribute into the French Social Security System and declare world-wide income (wherever the tax happens to be actually paid). Once here, your wife would have to set up one for herself in order to be able to work (if her Visa allows her to), as they are for individuals. If you're in partnership, you have to set up a company which, believe me, would be crippling financially.
How's your French? It will have to be adequate to cope with all the Bureaucracy involved with working (and in fact living) in France. Is there a particular reason for selecting France and not an English-speaking country like the Republic of Ireland?
If no one comes along with official government links, I'll make a search later on today!

hasen

Ok do you have a direct link for that?
I'd be interested to see that if you find anything useful since I understand French, I could check that out. My French is not really good enough to do a deep search of the subject though since that can be tough even in English. Basically my French is good enough to analyse a document someone gives me that has the information I need, but not good enough to search and scan through possibilities until I find the information I need, if you follow what I mean.
Hmm I see. My wife's work only has connection with China and her income will all go directly to her Chinese bank accounts. Not sure what we'd have to do with that. We wouldn't need to be a partnership, unless that benefited us but you're saying it would be the opposite.
I was fortunate to study French for 7 months self study last year so I have some basic foundations. Particularly with reading and writing, not so much with listening and speaking so would have to work on that for the move to France but that's no problem. I hadn't considered Ireland, that completely passed me by. Is that gonna be easier than France or are you just suggesting it because of the language thing? If it's just language then I'd rather stick with France.
Thanks, and thanks for all the help so far btw.

EuroTrash

Provided you move while you're still an EU citizen this is what you need to apply for
https://www.service-public.fr/partic...sdroits/F19315

I believe that only your income can be taken into account. Your wife would be allowed to work on a spouse visa, but since her right to reside depends entirely on yours, it's you that has to meet the residence criteria in your own right. You would be moving here as an EU citizen exercising your right to freedom of movement, so what you need to demonstrate is that you are exercising that right correctly, i.e. if your status will be "EU worker" then you need to demonstrate that you meet the criteria for that status. https://www.service-public.fr/partic...osdroits/F2651

Essentially you just need to show you are carrying on a sustainable professional activity in France. I don't think you'll find a target income that you have to prove, because for things like this France tends not to specify figures and turn things into purely box-ticking exercises, they prefer to study applications case by case and make their decision based on circumstances. For self-employment, obviously your activity would have to be up and running here before you can apply, and they'd want to see your business records (invoices etc). Also bear in mind that for a micro entreprise everything is calculated on flat rates and only a certain percentage of your turnover is classed as "profit", for instance if you are a reseller I think it's around 30%, so in order to demonstrate an income of 20k pa as a micro you would need to show a turnover of around 60k.

I guess you would need to establish yourself here first and then apply for your wife to join you, I'm not sure you can apply for her to reside in France with you before you have qualified in your own right and obtained your own carte de séjour. Will you be buying a house or looking to rent?

hasen

Hmm that's different to my understanding of the 'freedom of movement' rule. Taking her out of the picture for a moment, I was under the impression that I was free to move and stay in France indefinitely without having to prove anything? Why would I personally need a carte de séjour, I thought as British we have indefinite right to remain in France or other EU countries?

So they've got these hidden numbers in their head. That makes it a bit more difficult. So it's entirely possible they have the same £20,000 salary per year requirement as the UK?

We'll be renting.

That was funny, it didn't let me post this because I can't post urls until I have at least 5 posts...but it's your url.

cyrian

Have a look here

Freedom of movement

Free movement rights have been extended to other categories of EU citizens who are not workers or self-employed. However, these citizens have fewer rights because they are not contributing in the same way to the host country’s economy.

Any EU citizen can move to and remain in another EU country for up to three months. EU citizens who are students may remain for the duration of their studies, but must show that they have sufficient financial support for their period of study. Other EU citizens who wish to stay longer than three months must have comprehensive sickness insurance and prove that they have financial resources to support themselves.

Because finding a job from abroad is often difficult, EU citizens who are job seekers can move to another EU country and claim the same out-of-work benefit (but not other benefits) available to nationals of that country while they are looking for employment. This means that the point at which EU job-seekers can access this benefit will depend on each country’s rules for its own citizens. This varies between EU member states.

In some countries job seekers can only claim out-of-work benefits if they have previously worked (e.g., Austria and Belgium); in others a waiting period of several months is imposed (e.g., France and the Netherlands), and in some countries there is immediate entitlement to out-of-work benefits (e.g., the UK, Germany, and Ireland). However, a job seeker must prove that he or she is actively looking for a job and stands a real chance of being given employment.

hasen

Ok I see, so it's not really that free, movement wise, it's not like being in the UK where as long as you physically have enough to survive nobody minds, you don't have to prove anything to anyone (for British I mean). So you have to prove you have enough to survive or proof you have a job or are self employed and earn above a certain amount? Also one person's idea of what you need to support yourself can be very different to another. I really wonder what these details are but it seems very hard to find anything concrete.

EuroTrash

Exactly. EU freedom of movement is not and never has been unconditional. It's only Brits who seem to imagine that it is, oddly enough.

Basically EU rules ensure that people have rights but they also ensure that countries have rights. So, each EU country can design its legislation to prevent EU incomers moving there and becoming a burden on its taxpayers and social security system. The link explained how France has dealt with this and what its criteria for "legal residence" are. As you say, as an EU citizen you are not obliged to actually hold a carte de séjour but you do have to meet the criteria for obtaining one. And I have a feeling that if you apply for a spouse visa, you would in fact need to actually hold a valid carte de séjour yourself because CAF may ask for this.
France tends to regard the spirit of the law as more important than the letter of the law. Hence they will not give a precise figure that you have to earn. If they see a serious sustainable business that has a good chance of growing in the future,they're more likely to accept a lower income for the current year than if they see a dodgy-looking business that by sheer coincidence is able to prove that it exactly meets a randomly-chosen income threshold. But a permanent employment contract is always going to be viewed more favourably than self employment or temporary work.

Also, you might want to have a look at the threads on renting because it's easier said than done if you don't have a job here.

hasen

I guess calling it freedom of movement was not the best idea. Perhaps freedom of movement with restrictions would have been better lol.

Well I wouldn't imagine I could claim social security anyway? In China they don't have any requirements for income or employment status or anything, but of course they don't give you any benefits either. Seems to make more sense this way.

Not sure what this means. I thought CAF was for people other than members of the EU? If I need that then freedom of movement seems to mean even less still.

Ok but what about sole traders that just don't earn much? Without any guidelines applying for a visa seems a bit like gambling. Especially since if you get rejected once it becomes even more difficult to get accepted a subsequent time. But if that's how it is then that's how it is I guess.

Regarding renting, yes I read about that in here and it seems it's difficult without good employment and income proof. Even if the visa itself didn't require it you'll get hit trying to rent.

dmu

Thanks for posting the link I was hoping to find!
@hasen: As stated in that link, proof that you yourself won't be a burden on the State must be a Work Contract (or all the paperwork proving that you've set up a business structure) and proof of ressources (your business accounts and private bank statements). I'm not sure how your wife's later application will be regarded if she intends her earnings to remain in China.....
As suggested above, take a look in the "Renting" thread in the Read-Me: Moving to France FAQs above. French landlords normally require proof of a regular income 3-4 times the rent before they'll consider you (and in addition, you would have to get your landlord's written permission to use his/her address as your place of business).
Sorry to be a wet blanket, but this is France and if you've only ever been here on holiday, you can't know about the bureaucracy that you must cope with.
Fore-warned is fore-armed!
P.S. I mentioned Ireland (or a Scandinavian country or the Netherlands, where English is widely spoken by the natives), in case neither of you speaks adequate French.
Found this official French Government link
Vous êtes conjoint(e) d’un(e) citoyen(ne) de l’UE hors EEE/Confédération suisse, ou ascendant ou descendant direct d’un(e) tel(le) citoyen(ne) ou de son conjoint - Vous êtes membre de famille d’un ressortissant(e) de l’UE, de l’EEE ou
In the "pièces à fournir", under "justificatf du droit de séjour de l'accueillant", they only specify, as hinted by ET: "depending on the category of the sponsor", so I'm afraid you'll have to dig deeper by contacting your nearest French Consulate in China. Since the earlier hopefuls on the forum have never given feedback, and most of us are UK citizens with spouses who haven't needed a visa, all we can do is direct you to official French links.
All the best!

dmu

Hi again, my post crossed with this one!
It's not a question of "claiming social security", you must contribute into the System in order to get healthcare coverage (as well as Pension and Family Allowances from the CAF). As healthcare coverage is compulsory for all "newcomers", you'd have to take out private healthcare insurance until your business (via which you contribute into the System) is up and running. AFAIK micro-entreprise owners, like company managers, aren't entitled to unemployment benefits, if this is what you mean by claiming social security.
This is another reason for suggesting not to come to France, as I imagine that the other countries I mentioned haven't got the same strangling bureaucracy.... Btw, you didn't say why you've chosen France.....

hasen

The earnings would be transferred to France as and when needed. My earnings all go into my bank in England and are transferred to China as and when needed. The problem with being self employed with 'online' jobs is that often income doesn't come into the country you live in. Not sure if there are rules to take into account these kinds of things. Proof of resources sounds fine enough but they don't say what they need to be.

3-4 times the rent sounds about right. It's probably about the same in England. Especially joint income.

Yeah they certainly don't want to give information about that. Unlike the UK visa which has very specific details regarding that. I guess that's the culture difference. Thanks for your help anyway.

EuroTrash

Well, what EU citizens have is the RIGHT TO freedom of movement. Rights are automatically linked with obligations, or at least in France they are (droits et devoirs) and I would think in most people's minds, so normally if you want to exercise a right, one of the first things you do is find out what the associated obligations are. Rights don't usually mean "carte blanche", or at least not in the EU.

Re banks and business income, I think you might be hoping for a bit more flexibility than French rules allow for. If you say you run a business in France, the prefecture isn't interested in a UK bank statement showing an un-itemised credit balance and you explaining you don't keep French accounts because you run your business in sterling. What they expect is a set of business records that complies with French fiscal requirements, designed so that they can easily verify a business' turnover, ie match up each credit payment into your designated French business account (obligatory for a micro entrepreneur) with the corresponding invoice (in euros), and if they're feeling super keen, check that the service invoiced for is the service that you're registered to provide and that the invoice has all the obligatory mentions légales on it. It's how France works. Droits et devoirs, rights and obligations, you meet your obligations to the state and the state will meet its obligations towards you, or alternatively, you don't bother with the rules and the state won't bother granting you any rights.

In fact as far as business accounts go it's not hard to comply. I also work online, for clients across the EU and some outside it. Mostly I can get the payments into my French business account (PayPal, SEPA transfers etc), and for the few that pay in the UK, I simply calculate the exchange rate on the day the payment is received in sterling, and create a euro invoice to that amount on my system; that way my turnover figure always reflects actual turnover.

You don't need to earn megabucks, just enough to be self supporting (ie enough to pay a decent level of social security contributions so that you're not being subsidised by other workers).