EuroTrash

Where in the Withdrawal Agreement or France's interpretation of it on the public service websites does it suggest that families will be split up or fines issued or complicated processes to negotiate? I can't see anything that remotely suggests that.
I think if you read it carefully you will end up feeling quite reassured and clear about what will happen.

Nand

What sort of fines would they have to pay? Asking for a friend.

EuroTrash

Your friend might like to read this https://www.juritravail.com/Article/titre-sejour/Id/158
Seems to be a fine of up to 3 750€, possibly a prison sentence if they're found to have been involved in any dodgy activities during their stay.

Seriously, please advise your friend not to tangle with OFII just for the fun of it. Immigration rules can't be taken lightly. To your friend it might be a few days this way or that, to an immigration officer it's a person who has broken immigration law and spent time illegally on the national territory, and they will wonder what that person has been doing in France and what their motive was for deciding it was worth breaking the law. Tourists don't tend to risk facing sanctions just so they can stay on and see a few more sights, so why were they in France if not as tourists, are they involved in terrorism? Crime? Fraud? Your friend might find him or herself in an office being interviewed by men wearing uniforms with guns in their belts, and a fair bit of paperwork to sign before he or she is allowed to go on their merry way.

Nand

Yes, I can see that could become a fiasco. I think the problem was about her being able to find proof of the three month period here in France because it began as a holiday and ended up being a stay over in a b&b while the lockdown happened here in France. Then, finding France a fun place to be, a decision was made to stay in France permenantly. Fortunately this person is not involved in any kind of illegal activities. I think all will be resolved if proof of having stayed inFrance can be found and then residency will be applied for. I guess even if the paper work isn't completed by December, she wouldn't have to return to UK? I think that is not necessary until after the July deadline? The idea came up about going back to UK in August for a visit with her family. So my advice to her will be that if she decides for sure she wants to live in France, not to go to back to UK this August but to establish proof of residency here, apply for residence in France and then take the trip back to UK next summer?

EuroTrash

I'm struggling to see what the problem is here.
If at any point before the end of transltion your friend takes the decision to move to France, and if she does everything correctly in terms of meeting the conditions for freedom of movement, having healthcare in place etc, then she'll be in exactly the same position as the thousands of other Brits who moved to France during transition. She would have to apply for her provisional titre de séjour before the end of June 2021, and at that stage she will be required to provide documents demonstrating that she began correctly exercising her freedom of movement before the end of transition and has done so consistently since that time.
It's for her to ensure that she is "correctly exercising FoM" as opposed to, simply spending time in France on a kind of overlong vacation but not actually exercising FoM as defined by the Directive. What's her status in France - is she planning to work, is she a self-supporting inactive with a regular and sufficient income, is she a student, is she retirement age and on a pension....? If she's not working,,has she got initial healthcare in place and is she planning to apply to join PUMA after she's been here for three months?
Either way, proving she stayed 3 months in tourist accommodation as a visitor isn't going to help her because by definition tourists are not residents. If she wants to stay permanently I suggest she starts trying to find a residential tenancy, which depending on her personal situation may not be easy.

Nand

Well thats just it isn't it. She is currently looking for a rental flat with a contract and making decisions about work and or applying as a student. The requirements for 'hours per week' for what counts as valid work for a residency permit isn't too hard to find, even driving for grocery delivery could qualify. She hasn't gotten health care, still relies on nhs as she is young and in good health. I have an idea if health became a problem she would find a way back to family in the UK.

I think really what is concerning is that if things go wrong and she runs out of money, can't get work, doesn't get acceptd in a school and she tries to drive back, what would be the consequences at the boarder? I imagine it would be ok up until July 2021? after that ? Surely by then something will have worked out though.

She hasn't got internet access and I'm not able to see my way to letting anyone in the house because we are avoiding everyone. How can she prove her intention to remain other than a rental contract or electric bills?

EuroTrash

If she's resident in France, that means she's stopped being resident in the UK. If she's no longer resident in the UK, she's no longer eligible for NHS cover.
As long as she hasn't informed the UK she's left, of course she can come back to the UK and get treatment as if she still lived here. But, if she wants to become resident in France she"ll have to get off the fence before the end of transition. She can't keep telling the UK that she's UK resident and telling France that she lives in France, it won't wash.
But as soon as she gets a job she will automatically be enrolled in the French healthcare system, or if she enrolls as a student she will be guided by student support services on how to enrol for healthcare - all students in France are required to have healthcare in place, it's not optional.

If she hasn't found work or been accepted onto a qualifying course by the end of transition, she should come back within three months. Her period of legal residence won't start until she starts meeting FoM conditions, and if she hasn't begun meeting those conditions before the end of transition then she's lost her chance. Her automatic right to work in France ends on 31 December, after that if she isn't already in work she will need a work permit before she can start a new job.

It's not about her future intentions. It's about her situation on 31st December, as per previous point. The purpose of the withdrawal agreement is to protect rights that have already been established, to avoid disrupting citizens' lives. If she hasn't established any rights by the end of transition - by working, by being enrolled as a student, whatever - then she has no residence rights to protect, she will be regarded as a visitor. The purpose of the transition period was to give Brits who were in the process of establishing themselves; time to get their acts together. The period between Jan to July isn't a kind of add-on transition for those that didn't quite meet the deadline; Dec 31st is the cut off date for establishing legal residence, and after that it's a case of proving continuity of residence.

If a person genuinely lives in France, they will automatically have paperwork to prove it without having to scrabble around for it - employment contract, student enrolment card, rental contract, utilities bills, tax bills, health card...

I can perfectly well understand that this person has been finding France great fun for an extended visit, but the reality of living there - finding a place to live, finding work, paying cotisations, paying taxes - might take the shine off. Let's face it, most places seem great when you have no responsibilities. The next few months will show whether or not she's serious enough about it to get to grips with the challenges and make a go of it, or if she goes off the idea when she finds it's not quite as easy as she maybe imagined. If I were you I would give her what encouragement you can, but come December if she hasn't got herself sorted, put your foot down and say enough, it's time to go home.

Good luck to her if it's what she wants. I'm guessing she's in Paris?

Nand

Yes, she is in Paris now with a french boyfriend, no intention on such short notiice for marraige I don't think.

Ok I think this is best handled by a discreet phone call to her grandmother, an old friend of mine who lives in Wales. She knows less than I do about the current paper work post Brexit for those hoping to live inFrance. I think it would be better coming from her. Her mother, in Portugal, seems completly unconcerned, so that is it.

It was easier in Italy to get the 'Permesso di sorgiorno' when I was a young student. You could even apply just studying Italian language courses for the permission to stay in those days.
Never thought I'd be saying that.

Thanks so much, I will have something to say that may help to get the situation back to normal. I did have the wrong impression on the health insurance. It'll probably all turn out right in the end.

dmu

Hi, I would add to all the good advice given that, if the boyfriend is putting her up, she would need a "Déclaration sur l'Honneur" from him that she's living at his domicile and, strictly speaking, should get her name on one of the Utility Bills, to justify her domicile when applying for Résidence. The "partner" status doesn't exist in France and she would be considered a separate individual from him for all things Administrative, particularly healthcare insurance, Income Tax, etc..
HTH

EuroTrash

Don't worry tumbleweedly, I'm sure it'll work itself out. The main thing to impress upon her is the need to avoid getting herself into the position of being an illegal alien in France. Until the end of the year she is free to float around the EU to her heart's content, and she has the option of putting down roots if she wishes. After the end of the year everything changes; her floatings around the EU will be regulated and it's up to her to make sure she stays legal, and if she hasn't put down roots by then, she'll need a visa to allow her to do so in the future. Alternatively she could make an honest man of the boyfriend
If she can get a place as a student, and she has sufficient resources to see her through her course, it could be a fantasitc experience for her. It makes me so sad that British kids are losing this opportunity.
On the other hand, if she gets a job delivering groceries, she might just come to the conclusion that a minimum wage job in France is pretty much the same as a minimum wage job in the UK, and without French qualifications her prospects in the UK would be better. But that's something young people have to work out for themselves, they won't believe us oldies if we try to tell them. And I guess it all depends how gorgeous the boyfriend is too.

Tweedpipe

I believe I was considered gorgeous once upon a time, but try telling that to Mme TP these days........

Nand

Yes, I quite agree. Her grandmother is going to encourqge her to take the student route and will back that up by providing the funds for classes. So that could go well. I will relay the information about the difference between the status of 'married' and 'rooming partner' for France immigration.

Lets hope he is THAT gorgeous. 💖

Scots in Treignac

When I return from France to Scotland,I sometimes catch the ferry from Belgium or the Netherlands rather than France.

Assuming that no one is going to stop me travelling from France to Belgium/ the Netherlands, are the fines imposed for overstaying the same in each country , or the checks any less stringent.?

Scots in Treignac

My wife is thinking about applying for an Irish Passport as she was born in Belfast and lived thereunto she was 12 to 15 months old.

Im looking for early experiences of how the spouses of EU citizens are dealt with at Passport Control.

Also are there any other advantages of having an Irish passport.

I suspect that our children and Grand children will gain more than us from an Irish passport.

Listen Very Carefully

Just to confirm that when a non resident enters the Schengen area their passport is stamped at point of entry and is then stamped again at point of exit so your passport will show how long you have been in Schengen In addition the EU is bringing online a computer system to stream line the policing of non Schengen residents