Neighbor Problem
#16
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From: Dépt 61











It's a matter for the 'police municipale' not the gendarmes. Gendarmes are soldiers - you don't go to the army to complain about your neighbour unless a serious crime has been committed. Your local bobby is the one whose job it it to deal with the complaints that come to the mairie about barking dogs, people dumping their rubbish in other people's bins etc. I don't know why your mayor (is he or she really called Marie?) said they couldn't act - keeping the peace in his/her commune and settling disputes between neighbours is one of the things (sh)he is elected to do.
Be careful of taking photos or videos though because taking a picture of an identifiable person without their consent is classed as invasion of privacy regardless of the circumstances. No good handing ammunition to your neighbour who clearly knows French law.
Do you have other neighbours? Do they know what's going on? How do they feel about your neighbour?
If you have the sympathy of your other neighbours and they'd say all the right things to reporters, actually think the newspaper idea is the best idea. Local newspapers love this sort of thing, and it will shame the mayor into taking action. No mayor wants his commune splattered all over the newspaper as a place where innocent people are threatened and bullied and the mayor stands by and lets it happen.
Be careful of taking photos or videos though because taking a picture of an identifiable person without their consent is classed as invasion of privacy regardless of the circumstances. No good handing ammunition to your neighbour who clearly knows French law.
Do you have other neighbours? Do they know what's going on? How do they feel about your neighbour?
If you have the sympathy of your other neighbours and they'd say all the right things to reporters, actually think the newspaper idea is the best idea. Local newspapers love this sort of thing, and it will shame the mayor into taking action. No mayor wants his commune splattered all over the newspaper as a place where innocent people are threatened and bullied and the mayor stands by and lets it happen.
#17
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 762
From: 1.2 East











It's a matter for the 'police municipale' not the gendarmes. Gendarmes are soldiers - you don't go to the army to complain about your neighbour unless a serious crime has been committed. Your local bobby is the one whose job it it to deal with the complaints that come to the mairie about barking dogs, people dumping their rubbish in other people's bins etc. I don't know why your mayor (is he or she really called Marie?) said they couldn't act - keeping the peace in his/her commune and settling disputes between neighbours is one of the things (sh)he is elected to do.
Be careful of taking photos or videos though because taking a picture of an identifiable person without their consent is classed as invasion of privacy regardless of the circumstances. No good handing ammunition to your neighbour who clearly knows French law.
Do you have other neighbours? Do they know what's going on? How do they feel about your neighbour?
If you have the sympathy of your other neighbours and they'd say all the right things to reporters, actually think the newspaper idea is the best idea. Local newspapers love this sort of thing, and it will shame the mayor into taking action. No mayor wants his commune splattered all over the newspaper as a place where innocent people are threatened and bullied and the mayor stands by and lets it happen.
Be careful of taking photos or videos though because taking a picture of an identifiable person without their consent is classed as invasion of privacy regardless of the circumstances. No good handing ammunition to your neighbour who clearly knows French law.
Do you have other neighbours? Do they know what's going on? How do they feel about your neighbour?
If you have the sympathy of your other neighbours and they'd say all the right things to reporters, actually think the newspaper idea is the best idea. Local newspapers love this sort of thing, and it will shame the mayor into taking action. No mayor wants his commune splattered all over the newspaper as a place where innocent people are threatened and bullied and the mayor stands by and lets it happen.
#18
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Joined: Jan 2012
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From: Dépt 61











Sorry but I think the gendarmes will close ranks and look after their own, especially if the other person is not even French. Think armed forces mentality. And it sounds to me as if the neighbour is confident of this too
Last edited by EuroTrash; Oct 31st 2014 at 9:11 pm.
#19
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From: Dépt 61











From googling, it appears that gendarmes and their families have to live in barracks. Maybe he just doesn't know how to behave with civilian neighbours. I'm not saying this is any excuse but it might help to understand how is brain is working (if indeed it is) and be something useful to bear in mind when dealing with him.
#20
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Good Morning Everyone...
We have video and recorded evidence of his and his wife's threatening behaviour....him making head butting and stabbing motions with the pointed end of our fence pole ' the fence, which they broke.....It's not a matter of their word against ours...The local Marie and the Police have viewed it... The policeman said he would pass by and see them..I don't know if he did.... Since that day, without aggression, they have had their son have a chat with us about there being a servitude on our property... They keep mentioning Servitude... Our deeds, and I have a feeling their deeds too, don't say that they have servitude on our land... The 2 Notaires and the Cadastre cant be wrong or lying... I get the feeling the're back to manipulating tactics now... since the aggression hasn't worked.
The sad thing is that we were friends when we bought the house... and I extended generous hospitality towards them... would have them over for dinner twice a month, every time they came from the Pyrenees ... Their grown sons are well educated, respectful and so polite...We really like the kids...
I really hope, without giving in to their unfair intimidation, we can some day be friends again and live in peace as good neighbours...
We have video and recorded evidence of his and his wife's threatening behaviour....him making head butting and stabbing motions with the pointed end of our fence pole ' the fence, which they broke.....It's not a matter of their word against ours...The local Marie and the Police have viewed it... The policeman said he would pass by and see them..I don't know if he did.... Since that day, without aggression, they have had their son have a chat with us about there being a servitude on our property... They keep mentioning Servitude... Our deeds, and I have a feeling their deeds too, don't say that they have servitude on our land... The 2 Notaires and the Cadastre cant be wrong or lying... I get the feeling the're back to manipulating tactics now... since the aggression hasn't worked.
The sad thing is that we were friends when we bought the house... and I extended generous hospitality towards them... would have them over for dinner twice a month, every time they came from the Pyrenees ... Their grown sons are well educated, respectful and so polite...We really like the kids...
I really hope, without giving in to their unfair intimidation, we can some day be friends again and live in peace as good neighbours...
#21
Thread Starter
Just Joined
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 8

Thank you once again for all your advice...
Just wondered if anyone knows about the laws surrounding neighbours access to a well situated on our property... Can't seem to find anything in the French Code Civil...
Just wondered if anyone knows about the laws surrounding neighbours access to a well situated on our property... Can't seem to find anything in the French Code Civil...
#22
Actually it depends where you live. I assume the OP is in the country which means it will be the gendarmes who would deal with this. In a sizable town it would more likely be the police.
In any case it's not something the OP needs to worry about as a call to 17 (or 112 from a mobile) will dispatch the competent service.
I have found the gendarmes to be extremely competent and I really don't think they would be anything other than professional in handling this. Of course the neighbour will be very aware of what they can and can't do in this situation.
I wouldn't worry at all about filming or recording events - that would be a civil matter and it would also hinge on what the intention was. If it's never published then no law has been broken:-
« Lorsqu'elle est réalisée sans l'accord de l'intéressé, la diffusion, par quelque moyen que ce soit et quel qu'en soit le support, de l'image d'une personne identifiée ou identifiable mise en cause à l'occasion d'une procédure pénale mais n'ayant pas fait l'objet d'un jugement de condamnation et faisant apparaître, soit que cette personne porte des menottes ou entraves, soit qu'elle est placée en détention provisoire »
In any case it's not something the OP needs to worry about as a call to 17 (or 112 from a mobile) will dispatch the competent service.
I have found the gendarmes to be extremely competent and I really don't think they would be anything other than professional in handling this. Of course the neighbour will be very aware of what they can and can't do in this situation.
I wouldn't worry at all about filming or recording events - that would be a civil matter and it would also hinge on what the intention was. If it's never published then no law has been broken:-
« Lorsqu'elle est réalisée sans l'accord de l'intéressé, la diffusion, par quelque moyen que ce soit et quel qu'en soit le support, de l'image d'une personne identifiée ou identifiable mise en cause à l'occasion d'une procédure pénale mais n'ayant pas fait l'objet d'un jugement de condamnation et faisant apparaître, soit que cette personne porte des menottes ou entraves, soit qu'elle est placée en détention provisoire »
#23
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Joined: Jan 2012
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From: Dépt 61











Glad to hear that the white flags are out.
If your deeds don't say that there's a servitude, and he doesn't have a document that says it, then there is no servitude. It wouldn't be in his deeds, his deeds are about his property not yours, but there should be a separate document that would have been drawn up by the notaire when the servitude was first agreed.
He's not necessarily correct in saying that once there is a servitude there is always a servitude, I seem to recall that they can expire through disuse, but over a very long period of time.
It's not up to you to prove there isn't one - it's your property, so it's up to them to prove their rights on your land. I think you need to be polite but firm and make it clear that if they can prove that it exists, of course you will be very happy to honour it, but it's not reasonable for anybody to stake an important claim like this with no legal documents to support it. If he's lost the document and can't get a copy, then tough.
The issue is that if you agree to it now, then when you come to sell you'll have to disclose that you've agreed a servitude and it would have to be written in, because servitudes go with the land not with the owner so the new owner would have to respect it, and it could impact on the value of the property.
However I don't think you can refuse him a 'droit de passage' to his own well if his only reasonabe access to it is across your property, even if it isn't mentioned in your deeds.
Maybe you should get your verbal agreement of three years ago made official.
If your deeds don't say that there's a servitude, and he doesn't have a document that says it, then there is no servitude. It wouldn't be in his deeds, his deeds are about his property not yours, but there should be a separate document that would have been drawn up by the notaire when the servitude was first agreed.
He's not necessarily correct in saying that once there is a servitude there is always a servitude, I seem to recall that they can expire through disuse, but over a very long period of time.
It's not up to you to prove there isn't one - it's your property, so it's up to them to prove their rights on your land. I think you need to be polite but firm and make it clear that if they can prove that it exists, of course you will be very happy to honour it, but it's not reasonable for anybody to stake an important claim like this with no legal documents to support it. If he's lost the document and can't get a copy, then tough.
The issue is that if you agree to it now, then when you come to sell you'll have to disclose that you've agreed a servitude and it would have to be written in, because servitudes go with the land not with the owner so the new owner would have to respect it, and it could impact on the value of the property.
However I don't think you can refuse him a 'droit de passage' to his own well if his only reasonabe access to it is across your property, even if it isn't mentioned in your deeds.
Maybe you should get your verbal agreement of three years ago made official.
#24
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Posts: 8

Hi EuroTrash...
Thanks for your advice... The well is ours.. we paid 4000 euros for it...
He refuses to get any verbal agreement made official...He made our last neighbour pay for installing Boundary Markers and then refused to sign...
We have 24 CCTV all round our property, since my brother in law runs a CCTV business and we got he cameras for free... There are signs to let everyone know that they are recording...
We have recordings of the neighbours' threatening behaviour and of them breaking our fence...which the Mayor and the police have seen...
We'll see what happens... Prefer to solve this amicably...without being intimidated into submission...
Thanks for your advice... The well is ours.. we paid 4000 euros for it...
He refuses to get any verbal agreement made official...He made our last neighbour pay for installing Boundary Markers and then refused to sign...
We have 24 CCTV all round our property, since my brother in law runs a CCTV business and we got he cameras for free... There are signs to let everyone know that they are recording...
We have recordings of the neighbours' threatening behaviour and of them breaking our fence...which the Mayor and the police have seen...
We'll see what happens... Prefer to solve this amicably...without being intimidated into submission...
#25
Sorry but that's not correct. There are laws in France against this kind of behaviour and the gendarmes are obliged to attend in such circumstances:-
- Appels téléphoniques malveillants ou agressions sonores : 1 an de prison et 15.000 Euros d'amende
- Menace de commettre un crime ou un délit contre les personnes avec ordre de remplir une condition si la victime n'exécute pas l'ordre donné : 3 ans d'emprisonnement et 45.000 Euros d'amende
- Menace de mort avec ordre de remplir une condition : 5 ans de prison et 76.000 Euros d'amende
- Menace ou acte d'intimidation en vue d'obtenir de la victime d'un crime ou d'un délit qu'elle ne porte pas plainte ou qu'elle se rétracte : 3 ans de prison et 45.000 Euros d'amende
- Appels téléphoniques malveillants ou agressions sonores : 1 an de prison et 15.000 Euros d'amende
- Menace de commettre un crime ou un délit contre les personnes avec ordre de remplir une condition si la victime n'exécute pas l'ordre donné : 3 ans d'emprisonnement et 45.000 Euros d'amende
- Menace de mort avec ordre de remplir une condition : 5 ans de prison et 76.000 Euros d'amende
- Menace ou acte d'intimidation en vue d'obtenir de la victime d'un crime ou d'un délit qu'elle ne porte pas plainte ou qu'elle se rétracte : 3 ans de prison et 45.000 Euros d'amende
Hi EuroTrash...
Thanks for your advice... The well is ours.. we paid 4000 euros for it...
He refuses to get any verbal agreement made official...He made our last neighbour pay for installing Boundary Markers and then refused to sign...
We have 24 CCTV all round our property, since my brother in law runs a CCTV business and we got he cameras for free... There are signs to let everyone know that they are recording...
We have recordings of the neighbours' threatening behaviour and of them breaking our fence...which the Mayor and the police have seen...
We'll see what happens... Prefer to solve this amicably...without being intimidated into submission...
Thanks for your advice... The well is ours.. we paid 4000 euros for it...
He refuses to get any verbal agreement made official...He made our last neighbour pay for installing Boundary Markers and then refused to sign...
We have 24 CCTV all round our property, since my brother in law runs a CCTV business and we got he cameras for free... There are signs to let everyone know that they are recording...
We have recordings of the neighbours' threatening behaviour and of them breaking our fence...which the Mayor and the police have seen...
We'll see what happens... Prefer to solve this amicably...without being intimidated into submission...
Last edited by Chatter Static; Nov 1st 2014 at 1:00 am.
#26
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Joined: Jan 2012
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From: Dépt 61











If it's not even his well, he deffo sounds like a headcase. Or just a blustering bully that's desperate to win a small battle even if he loses the war, just so as not to lose face.
I guess all you can do is keep repeating calmly that you've looked into it, the notaire says there is no servitude, and unless he produces some real evidence to alter the known facts then there's no point in discussing it any further.
And as you say, see what happens.
Bon courage.
I guess all you can do is keep repeating calmly that you've looked into it, the notaire says there is no servitude, and unless he produces some real evidence to alter the known facts then there's no point in discussing it any further.
And as you say, see what happens.
Bon courage.
#27
Thread Starter
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Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 8

Thanks EuroTrash...Just what I need at the moment... COURAGE...... Many Many Thanks for all the Kind support..
#28
Can you put any kind of top on the well with a lock? And a notice on it that states it is your property and any interference with this lock, or attempt to use it will contravene regulation XXX with a fine of (sorry don't know the detail). I'm thinking that the more notices you have stating your property the less he can argue no knowledge, and interfering with it will be an act of vandalism or trespass (if there is such a law in France). Good luck.
#29
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Joined: Apr 2008
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Conciliateur de justice - Service-public.fr
Your Mairie will be able to tell you, or simply Google "Conciliateur de Justice" and the name of your town.
The only potential problem is that both parties must be present at the consultation, i.e. your neighbour must be there, too, with official proof of his claims, i.e. his Property Deeds mentioning the servitude....
If he refuses (which to me would mean that he hasn't got such proof), then I repeat my advice to consult an Avocat.
#30
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Joined: May 2012
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From: Qc, Canada











Oh dear
Firstly, BON COURAGE!!
Secondly, well done for checking the Code Civil, where you will have seen that "nul ne peut être enclavé chez lui".
Thirdly, check with your notaire to see if s/he missed any servitude documentation...
Then, depending on how nasty/threatening/abusive the neighbour is being, send him a lettre recommandée avec accusé de réception, "sans préjudice" detailing the situation and your position. Copy the letter (toujours recommandée avec accusé de réception) to the Mairie & local police.
If the white flags are out, you may be dealing with a xenophobic bully.
Again, good luck!
S
Firstly, BON COURAGE!!Secondly, well done for checking the Code Civil, where you will have seen that "nul ne peut être enclavé chez lui".
Thirdly, check with your notaire to see if s/he missed any servitude documentation...
Then, depending on how nasty/threatening/abusive the neighbour is being, send him a lettre recommandée avec accusé de réception, "sans préjudice" detailing the situation and your position. Copy the letter (toujours recommandée avec accusé de réception) to the Mairie & local police.
If the white flags are out, you may be dealing with a xenophobic bully.
Again, good luck!
S



