jsbach

Is there an equivalent to legal aid in France? At the moment, she's not been charged with anything but expects to hear more from the Gendarmerie by Tuesday. As I've said, she's virtually broke, with her house being her only asset.

Johann

Garonne

Yes, I was talking about the drink driving part of it. My friend had a low income so she wasn't fined at all but neither did she own her own house. She had no previous convictions either, held a French licence with the full 12 points and the French car was totally legal. But she still got a suspended prison sentence.

There is absolutely no chance the police will 'assume' anything. They will want to ensure they can get her for every possible offence going - that's what they're like here - and one of the first things they will want to see is that the car is legally roadworthy by way of an MOT certificate and insurance. So she's stuffed and there's no hope of getting out of that.

She will have to have a blood test before her court case to assess the amount of alcohol in her blood and rather than that softening any sentence it will make her sentence more severe if it's over the level. If she's an alcoholic she would have to refrain from drinking for at least 7 days minimum for her blood level to be normal. The thing your friend needs to understand is that she will be treated as a criminal and a suspended prison sentence, prison and/or fines will be the result of this plus the necessity to change her licence so that they can suspend it - or more likely completely cancel it, meaning she will then have to retake the test in France to get it back when the ban finishes. (This doesn't apply to suspensions, only annulation.)

The judge will certainly not be lenient and offer state-funded re-hab. It doesn't work like that here. As far as he/she is concerned he is dealing with a criminal who is guilty of several crimes. My friend was severely injured and had driven her car off the road and written it off. Her lawyer told her that the judge was renowned for giving 'foreigners' harsher sentences. Indeed he was. The guy up before her refused to take the breathylser test, was kept in custody overnight, had crashed into another vehicle and got 6 months suspension with no probation or suspended prison sentence. My friend was a professional who needed her licence to work but nothing cut any ice with the judge.

She will have to go to a pre-judgement interview to have her financial situation assessed. This is all sent off to the procureur before the tribunal so that he/she can assess whether a fine should be imposed. She will be required to take her avis d'impot (I sincerely hope at least on that front she's all legal and above board), proof of any other benefits or income, copy of a VALID passport, her driving licence and other bits and bobs which will all be listed in the convocation.

She may qualify for legal aid. Her avocat(e) will give her the form to fill in and send off.

You haven't said yet what she's been charged with, just that the police have 'asked for all her papers'. Is this in writing or was she told to do this when she was stopped?

The bottom line is she is in deep, deep trouble. I've been to several court hearings and her emotional state will make no difference to her sentence. What happens is everyone goes into the court at the same time and you wait your turn. Those with court appointed avocats are last on the list normally and those with reputable lawyers are top of the list, after the prisoners brought in with armed police officers who are already in prison.

She will be called to the bar. She is entitled to a court translator if her French isn't adequate to represent herself. She will be questioned by the judge and eventually the procureur will propose the sentence/fine to the judge. It is only then that her avocat will speak on her behalf to try to defend her and reduce the sentence/fine. My friend's son had a very serious charge against him but it was in exceptional circumstances and his lawyer managed to persuade the judge not to impose the probation and suspended sentence proposed by the procureur. He got 120 hours community service instead. The offence he committed carried a maximum 3 years prison sentence and a 35,000 fine.

Like the other posts, I don't want to appear to be scare-mongering but the truth of the matter is I think your friend is likely to get at the very least 3 to 6 months prison sentence, whether it's suspended or not will be up to the judge on the day. She has every reason to be scared stiff and the court case may take anything up to 9 months to take place which is a long time to be worried out of your head. On the other hand it may be in a couple of weeks ... there is just no way of knowing.

If you post on here exactly what she's received in writing from the police it will be easier to advise. Unfortunately I've been involved in several court cases (not myself prosecuted) so have quite a lot of knowledge on many offences and the likely punishment. So far as driving offences are concerned, she couldn't be in it any deeper - unless she'd caused an accident and injured or killed anyone then it would be a straight ten years inside. You say she may have been over the limit. Was she breathylised or not?

Peabrain

Hello,
There is legal aide (of course) in France. It's called l'aide juridictionnelle. There is a form to fill in which you can find on the internet: Cerfa n°12467*01.
The monthly ceiling on income to be able to benefit from it is
• 929 € pour l'aide juridictionnelle totale,
• 1.393 € pour l'aide juridictionnelle partielle.
No mention is made of what property the recipient may have. This aid is open to all citizens of the EU living in France.

If the family is that worried about this woman, whose triste vie is obviously, as you say, a form of slow suicide, they must play an active role, over here. It is possible to ask for someone who is clearly unable to look after themselves to be placed under 'curatelle' by the courts. This is a sort of guardianship, but of course it requires someone to be present, and to accept total responsibility for running the other person's life. It often happens with the old who are suffering from Alzheimer's disease, the mentally or physically disabled etc. But someone has to apply for it.

As dmu so wisely says, we can have no idea of how the courts will deal with your friend. What can be said though, is that the time when drink-driving was seen as just a manifestation of traditional French culture is now over. Deaths on our roads have plummeted, going from 17,000 a year in the early seventies, to below 4,000 today. This is partly due to the fight against drink-driving, and a much more hard-line approach by the courts. Hence the obvious need for your friend to get herself a lawyer. If she doesn't know one, one will no doubt be commis d'office, or appointed by the court.
But I would insist on the fact that this woman is clearly in one hell of a mess, and without the physical presence of someone she knows and trusts, is lost.
PB

Garonne

Our posts clashed. Yes, it's called 'aide juridictionnelle' and you can Google to see the table of amount awarded according to income, starting with zero up to 100%. Her income for the previous 12 months before the application is used to calculate it and naturally she'll need to provide her latest avis d'impots. I think there's a part to fill in to state whether you are a 'locateur' or 'proprietaire'.

Where is her income generated from?

You say her house is her only asset but presuming she has a television and other posessions can all be seized by the huissiers to pay any fines imposed. The only thing they cannot take, literally, is her bed and bed linen. They can (and do) take furniture, crockery, cutlery, garden tools, teles, computers, absolutely everything. These are all auctioned off (take a look at the lists on the noticeboard at the court house - it's amazing what they seize).

The way it works here so far as the police are concerned is they will be in discussion with the Procureur to see what to charge her with. You say she expects to hear more by Tuesday. What is the position exactly at the moment? Has she been to the police station at all since she was stopped? Was she given an 'avis de contravention' when she was stopped?

jsbach

Thanks for your detailed reply, Garonne.
At the moment, all I know is that she went to the Gendarmerie on another matter and the un-roadworthy nature of her car attracted the attention of an officer (broken wing mirror, 4 dodgy tyres). The vehicle was impounded - I assume due to its unroadworthy condition. She was breathalysed but not told the result. She presented all the paperwork she has and awaits the outcome.
The good part is that she's been told not to leave the country, so she'll finally have to face up to her idiotic and criminal behaviour; and that her car has been impounded.
I'll post again on Tuesday when she may well know what she's being charged with.

Thanks all,

Johann

Peabrain

Garonne's is a very useful post. It may be a little harsh on the French way of doing things, but after all, if your friend had had an accident involving some other poor sod, both would have been well and truly up s**t creek as she had no insurance. There is no reason why a magistrate should be lenient in this kind of case. I'll leave responsibility for the remark that magistrates may be harsher with foreigners to Garonne.
And the above quote should be read by all the wallies that somehow hope that by lying doggo, or just simply lying, they will be able to get away with living in the shadows.

Garonne

A 65 year old English bloke who came to me to help translate all the documents he'd received was nicked because he and his partner had a blazing row and the people in the apartment above called the police because the woman was screaming her head off. They were interviewed in their apartment in separate rooms and the bloke told the police officer he'd taken a sword and threatened his partner with it. She hadn't mentioned this to the police. He was taken into custody and charged with armed assault. He got a 3 month prison sentence suspended and 18 months probation. The woman can't speak or read hardly a word of French and wasn't offered a translator (which was her right) when she gave her statement. When I went with her to collect the papers from the police stationher statement was on the desk and when the officer nipped out to take copies of stuff I quickly scanned it. It stated that her partner had grabbed her round the neck and tried to strangle her then taken the sword which she disarmed him of. She told me she had said no such thing. My advice to anyone who isn't fluent French speaking would be to ALWAYS insist on having an official translator with you before signing anything at all at the police station. They type the statement in a 'question and answer' format. This poor woman didn't understand a word they were saying.

Is your friend fluent French speaking (I mean totally fluent not in a 'can get by' way)? If she is not she must inform the police that she wants an official translator present when she is convocated to the police station if they require her to give a statement. She won't have to pay for this. Normally driving offences don't require a statement to be given. The police just give you a statement which lists what you are accused of and the fact that it's been sent to the Procureur. If that's the case if she doesn't speak fluent French she'll be OK but if she has to do anything which SHE has stated, ie a full statement, she'll need a translator.

jsbach

She's bi-lingual, although I don't know how she'll get on with any jargon or technical legal terms. I'll let her know about the translator - so thanks for that.
Regarding taxes, I suspect that might be another very murky area. She's only ever earned a very small amount from a B&B business and I don't know if she's even registered herself for tax. Her (French) partner, who died earlier this year, had a small income but I suspect this was also undeclared. She has a small occupational pension from the UK.
A further issue regards her medication, which she currently gets by going to the UK about every 2 months and staying with her daughter. She's therefore registered with a UK GP, who prescribes her meds, which she gets free. Now that she's been told she mustn't leave the country, I know she'll be concerned about how to get the same prescription in France and whether she can get it free.

I appreciate there's an awful lot of state-sponging going on here, which I deplore, but I'm simply trying to throw lifelines to a drowning friend.

Johann

dmu

Her "legal" situation seems to be getting worse with every post you make. Isn't she covered for healthcare in France after all this time? With a low income, she could have applied for CMU coverage, but then you have to show your Avis d'Imposition and maybe she has never made her compulsory annual Déclaration? Her "partner's" Déclaration wouldn't have included her Pension if they weren't married or pacséd. He being French, isn't there any one in his family who can help?
Forgive me for stating the obvious, but, however much you are helping her, the daughter, or anyone else in the family, should already be in France to give her support (financial and moral).

Garonne

Oh my God. You don't register yourself for tax, it's a legal obligation to complete an annual French tax return including all global income. Hasn't she been doing that? So she's been running a B & B which presumably she hasn't registered with the Mairie (which is an obligation) or paying taxe de séjour for her guests and providing the Mairie with an annual register of paying guests. The Maire is, as you'll know, well connected with the Gendarmerie and will be made aware of the driving situation along with all other 'crimes' on his patch. They are routinely informed of offences committed by residents in their commune. So then if it comes out that she's been running a B&B undeclared she'll have all sorts of problems with that too. She presumably hasn't been completing tax declarations as well as running an illegal business. How on earth is she going to explain this? They'll throw the book at her - sorry, but that's the reality here.

And are you saying she is not in the French health service system? Another legal obligation for a French resident. Presumably she's not or she'd know all about reimbursements, etc. Also it's illegal for her to be still receiving non emergency national health treatment as a non UK resident so does the UK GP know she is not a UK resident?

Oh my, so she's got all the driving and insurance problems, no tax declarations, illegally running an unregistered business and not registered in the French health system or private French health cover.

When she goes for the pre-judgement interview about her income she will be signing a legal document 'sur l'honneur'. As she doesn't have an avis d'impot she'll be required to show her bank statements and justify income and outgoings and if any of her paying guests have paid by cheque all credits will be scrutinised. If it ever comes out at the hearing that she's been running an undeclared business she's going to be so much trouble it doesn't bear thinking about. It will be bad enough trying to explain why she hasn't got an avis d'impot to present - quite how she's going to explain that I have no idea. As I said, it's a legal requirement as a French resident.

I'm afraid she's up to her neck in it - on all issues.

I appreciate you don't condone what she's done and is doing but there are no lifelines you can throw her. That's the reality. Driving her car illegally will unearth all the other problems about declaration of income, health cover etc and she is drowning because she's been acting illegally. How long has she been living here? I think further up the thread you mentioned 8 years. So she's looking at the tax office chasing her for 8 years of declarations for a start plus all the other things like habitation tax and taxe fonciere. If she hasn't been filling out tax declarations how has her taxe d'habitation been calculated?

A friend of mine had a serious nervous breakdown followed by clinical depression about 12 years ago here but it didn't stop them from facing up to their legal responsibilities as a French resident.

If she isn't registered in the health system she will have to pay 23 euros to see a doctor and pay for her medication.

My word, what a mess.

Garonne

Our posts crossed dmu. The point is she's absolutely up to her neck in it. There will be no way for her avocat(e) to explain away any reason why she hasn't declared her income here and without an avis d'impot she can forget about applying for legal aid. Every document she signs will carry the normal warning about providing false information and the penalties and offences committed if one does. She mustn't even try to apply for legal aid. It will land her in even more trouble, if that's at all possible.

The police in France are like a terrier with a rabbit once they're 'onto' someone and leave no stone unturned.

dmu

Much cheaper than the cost of going to the UK every two months....

cjm

Given the wealth of good knowledge displayed by posters on this matter, I have nothing along similar lines to add, but may I pose a question: is/would there be any benefit in seeking advice/involvement of the British Embassy?

jsbach

Thank you for your continued input and advice, which is much appreciated, despite it being very hard to face.
I'm not sure whether she's registered for tax although I've a vague recollection of her telling me about some problem with tax a few years back. As far as I know, the taxes foncieres and d'habitation have always been paid on time.
I'm afraid the whole sorry scenario illustrates the depths to which one can sink when alcohol takes over one's life. It has consumed her, to the point where rational judgement and behaviour have completely been eradicated from her personality.

Johann

jsbach

Thanks - will try this.

Johann