French values

Old Oct 16th 2020, 11:35 pm
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Default French values

[Snipped out of a sticky thread on home schooling in France.]
Originally Posted by tumbleweedly View Post
What are 'french values'?

What are these? From my view of French people in my neighborhood and block of flats, french values are awful, no consideration for elderly people, egocentricity and a lot of raves and drunk university students, all of them full of 'french values'. ....
It seems that Macron has his work cut out to instill liberal "French values" in elements of the minority communities.
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Old Oct 17th 2020, 5:44 am
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Default Re: French values

Originally Posted by Pulaski View Post
[Snipped out of a sticky thread on home schooling in France.]

It seems that Macron has his work cut out to instill liberal "French values" in elements of the minority communities.
Any country has a problem in instilling its own way of life on immigrants not just France. When mass immigration takes place it is impossible to simply expect integration will happen. As a child in London there were communities where English simply wasn't spoken and today that situation still exists. Birmingham is another example. For France I think the problem is even greater but what is the solution? I don't know for sure. It certainly doesn't help when so-called 'free speech' publications in Charlie Hebdo cause people to be murdered!!!!
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Old Oct 17th 2020, 6:14 am
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Default Re: French values

Originally Posted by KJMW View Post
Any country has a problem in instilling its own way of life on immigrants not just France. When mass immigration takes place it is impossible to simply expect integration will happen. As a child in London there were communities where English simply wasn't spoken and today that situation still exists. Birmingham is another example. For France I think the problem is even greater but what is the solution? I don't know for sure. It certainly doesn't help when so-called 'free speech' publications in Charlie Hebdo cause people to be murdered!!!!
Yeah, that’s right. And of course it’s Charlie Hebdo’s fault that teacher got decapitated. Not the fault of the murdering nutters who did it.
I well remember Dave Allen years ago, taking the p*ss out of the Catholic Church. Did hordes of incensed Catholics rush out and start chopping people’s heads off? No, they did not. They laughed it off or sucked it up or took offence and sulked a bit.
This modern-day penchant for abasing oneself to excuse the actions of extremists has dangerous consequences. It’s causing huge pent-up frustration even among moderate members of the community and driving them to vote for parties that only a few years ago struggled to be taken seriously.
If we end up with Marine Le Pen in charge you’ll have only yourself to blame.

Last edited by Helen1964; Oct 17th 2020 at 7:04 am.
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Old Oct 17th 2020, 6:41 am
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Default Re: French values

In fact, thank you KJMW you’ve given me an idea.
If we get locked down again this winter I’ll spend my days penning a script for a new Father Ted series for our times.
With Fathers Ted, Jack & Dougal recast as mullahs in a madrasa.
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Old Oct 17th 2020, 7:51 am
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Default Re: French values

Originally Posted by Helen1964 View Post
Yeah, that’s right. And of course it’s Charlie Hebdo’s fault that teacher got decapitated. Not the fault of the murdering nutters who did it.
I well remember Dave Allen years ago, taking the p*ss out of the Catholic Church. Did hordes of incensed Catholics rush out and start chopping people’s heads off? No, they did not. They laughed it off or sucked it up or took offence and complained a bit.
This modern-day penchant for abasing oneself to excuse the actions of extremists has dangerous consequences. It’s causing huge pent-up frustration even among moderate members of the community and driving them to vote for parties that only a few years ago struggled to be taken seriously.
If we end up with Marine Le Pen in charge you’ll have only yourself to blame.
I also was (am) a fan of Dave Allen and he always finished his shows with" May your God go with you". I don't think the humour of Dave Allen can be compared to the article by hebdo depicting the Prophet as some sort of weird pervert. Dave Allen directed his humour in any event, not at Christ but at the behaviour surrounding Christ, a big difference; Hebdo's characterising of the prophet was, in my view, deliberately inciting and misrepresented free speech.
That people react so violently is hardly surprising. Religion is a sensitive subject and my view is that to offend anyone gratuitously as Hebdo did is wrong. That goes for any religion, Christianity, Hindu, Muslim; any religion. Incidentally I'm an atheist. I would add, though it shouldn't be necessary, that the reaction to Hebdo's articles is patently wrong. No one should be murdered over what any rationally thinking person would say are articles which are insulting even if going under the guise of 'free speech'.
Finally, why I should be responsible if France ends up with Marine Le Pen is a bit of a strange thing to say. No doubt it makes sense to you though.
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Old Oct 17th 2020, 8:02 am
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Vichy is coming back with Marie le Pen in charge ?
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Old Oct 17th 2020, 8:33 am
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Default Re: French values

The French will surrender as always.
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Old Oct 17th 2020, 8:55 am
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Default Re: French values

Originally Posted by KJMW View Post
I also was (am) a fan of Dave Allen and he always finished his shows with" May your God go with you". I don't think the humour of Dave Allen can be compared to the article by hebdo depicting the Prophet as some sort of weird pervert. Dave Allen directed his humour in any event, not at Christ but at the behaviour surrounding Christ, a big difference; Hebdo's characterising of the prophet was, in my view, deliberately inciting and misrepresented free speech.
That people react so violently is hardly surprising. Religion is a sensitive subject and my view is that to offend anyone gratuitously as Hebdo did is wrong. That goes for any religion, Christianity, Hindu, Muslim; any religion. Incidentally I'm an atheist. I would add, though it shouldn't be necessary, that the reaction to Hebdo's articles is patently wrong. No one should be murdered over what any rationally thinking person would say are articles which are insulting even if going under the guise of 'free speech'.
Finally, why I should be responsible if France ends up with Marine Le Pen is a bit of a strange thing to say. No doubt it makes sense to you though.
It certainly makes sense to me.
If you talk to people at all you must have noticed that there’s enormous frustration over what is seen as pandering to religious maniacs. And how does that frustration manifest itself? In voting for “fringe” parties of course. It’s hardly rocket science.

So what if somebody insults your religion? The option is open to you to ignore it and move on.
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Old Oct 17th 2020, 9:08 am
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Default Re: French values

I believe that as things stand in France it is OK to speak critically about a religion, but it is not OK to criticise individuals for practising that religion. That's what I seem to remember taking away from the jesuismila thing when that was kicking off earlier this year. It comes back to being "big" enough to disapprove of what a person says but at the same time defend their right to say it. I actually think that anyone who holds a certain belief should be prepared to have that belief challenged and should be capable of defending their belief calmly and rationally without resorting to insults or violence or worse. It does no harm at all to question your own belief, if it is a genuine belief you will be able to answer. Sadly when you look around - not only religions but, looking at the UK, Brexiters versus Remainers, lefty-lawyers-and-do-gooders versus the Home Office, those who want to pull down statues and those who don't - this seems to be sadly lacking in today's society, there is so little tolerance and open mindedness.

I agree with Helen1964, intolerance leads to division, which leads to hate, which leads to people voting for extremist parties, which leads to more division and more hate. It's a vicious circle. The way to combat it is to try and make people more tolerant and able to debate freely, not to suppress free speech.

Last edited by EuroTrash; Oct 17th 2020 at 9:11 am.
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Old Oct 17th 2020, 9:33 am
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Default Re: French values

Originally Posted by malcom1970 View Post
The French will surrender as always.

OK, so Pétain surrended in 1940. I don't want to start a debate on the subject, but "as always" is offensive to the French in general. I may be overreacting, but OH lived through WWII in Occupied France and he, in his way, and older Resistants didn't surrender to the collaborators and their masters....
1940 is a sensitive subject for the French, and best if outsiders don't comment on it in their presence, even nowadays, since they don't know whether their neighbours' (grand)fathers were collaborators or resistants.
, i.e. French values in the present context...
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Old Oct 17th 2020, 9:57 am
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Default Re: French values

Originally Posted by dmu View Post
, i.e. French values in the present context...
Well here is what everybody is supposed to learn as part of the immigration and integration process they go through in between entering France on a visa, and being given their carte de séjour.

https://www.immigration.interieur.go...AAmes%20droits.

In the context of immigration I wonder whether this is a second/third/fourth generation issue, in that the immigrant generation would have been through the integration process and presumably assimilated "French values" to some extent, and were presumably glad to do so since they presumably made an active choice to move here. But their children would not have gone through immigration and integration procedures and the parents may not necessarily have passed those values on effectively, and the next generation may even be angry with their parents for "selling out".
There are a lot of "presumably's" in there because I don't know enough about these things to say whether that does happen, I am just suggesting that it might.
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Old Oct 17th 2020, 12:36 pm
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Default Re: French values

Originally Posted by EuroTrash View Post
Well here is what everybody is supposed to learn as part of the immigration and integration process they go through in between entering France on a visa, and being given their carte de séjour.

https://www.immigration.interieur.go...AAmes%20droits.

In the context of immigration I wonder whether this is a second/third/fourth generation issue, in that the immigrant generation would have been through the integration process and presumably assimilated "French values" to some extent, and were presumably glad to do so since they presumably made an active choice to move here. But their children would not have gone through immigration and integration procedures and the parents may not necessarily have passed those values on effectively, and the next generation may even be angry with their parents for "selling out".
There are a lot of "presumably's" in there because I don't know enough about these things to say whether that does happen, I am just suggesting that it might.
+1 and you presume correctly.
An excellent answer to the question raised in the "Home-schooling" sticky thread!
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Old Oct 17th 2020, 2:12 pm
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Default Re: French values

Originally Posted by EuroTrash View Post
Well here is what everybody is supposed to learn as part of the immigration and integration process they go through in between entering France on a visa, and being given their carte de séjour.

https://www.immigration.interieur.go...AAmes%20droits.

In the context of immigration I wonder whether this is a second/third/fourth generation issue, in that the immigrant generation would have been through the integration process and presumably assimilated "French values" to some extent, and were presumably glad to do so since they presumably made an active choice to move here. But their children would not have gone through immigration and integration procedures and the parents may not necessarily have passed those values on effectively, and the next generation may even be angry with their parents for "selling out".
There are a lot of "presumably's" in there because I don't know enough about these things to say whether that does happen, I am just suggesting that it might.
As an observer of the situation in France, I think that is a plausible summary of the situation. I seem to recall reading some years ago in the UK that, similar to what you describe, immigrants had arrived in the UK in the 50's and 60's for the economic opportunities i.e. they came to take up jobs that they were specifically targeted for, but their children were leaving school and nobody wanted to hire them, at least not into well paid jobs. So for secular reasons, not religious ones, the situation was similar, with the second and subsequent generations being marginalized.
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Old Yesterday, 5:54 am
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Default Re: French values

Originally Posted by EuroTrash View Post
I believe that as things stand in France it is OK to speak critically about a religion, but it is not OK to criticise individuals for practising that religion. That's what I seem to remember taking away from the jesuismila thing when that was kicking off earlier this year. It comes back to being "big" enough to disapprove of what a person says but at the same time defend their right to say it. I actually think that anyone who holds a certain belief should be prepared to have that belief challenged and should be capable of defending their belief calmly and rationally without resorting to insults or violence or worse. It does no harm at all to question your own belief, if it is a genuine belief you will be able to answer. Sadly when you look around - not only religions but, looking at the UK, Brexiters versus Remainers, lefty-lawyers-and-do-gooders versus the Home Office, those who want to pull down statues and those who don't - this seems to be sadly lacking in today's society, there is so little tolerance and open mindedness.

I agree with Helen1964, intolerance leads to division, which leads to hate, which leads to people voting for extremist parties, which leads to more division and more hate. It's a vicious circle. The way to combat it is to try and make people more tolerant and able to debate freely, not to suppress free speech.
Allowing free speech or, as the teacher murdered was apparently doing, teaching free expression is fine but the problem is the abuse of free speech and so called free expression. Free speech is much abused and people who freely insult others simply claim its their right to do so. People have a responsibility to consider what they say may be found to be extremely offensive. O.k. they may have the legal right to say what they say but do they have the moral right to freely insult people? I don't think so. People are being assaulted on a daily basis because they have the 'moral right' to free speech and then cry when punched on the nose!!!! People are great at claiming their rights and of free speech; I often find though that these same people react very strongly should they be given a dose of their own treatment!!!! Perhaps lessons in schools should be called 'Abuse of free speech and free expression' Teach people that free speech isn't a weapon but rather a gift that if abused will eventually result in more laws restricting it. Some hope!!!
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Old Yesterday, 10:18 am
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Default Re: French values

Originally Posted by KJMW View Post
Allowing free speech or, as the teacher murdered was apparently doing, teaching free expression is fine but the problem is the abuse of free speech and so called free expression. Free speech is much abused and people who freely insult others simply claim its their right to do so. People have a responsibility to consider what they say may be found to be extremely offensive. O.k. they may have the legal right to say what they say but do they have the moral right to freely insult people? I don't think so.
No of course they don't. In French law everybody the right to express their opinions about a religion, a political belief etc. Nobody has the legal let along the moral right to insult an invidual because of their race, religion, political affiliation or sexual orientation.

Originally Posted by KJMW View Post
People are being assaulted on a daily basis because they have the 'moral right' to free speech and then cry when punched on the nose!!!! People are great at claiming their rights and of free speech; I often find though that these same people react very strongly should they be given a dose of their own treatment!!!!
I'm not quite following you here. If person A has expressed their view on a religion or whatever and not insulted any individual, then it's person B who punches them on the nose that is in the wrong. If person A has stepped over the line and insulted an individual then they are in the wrong, they can't hide behind the right of free speech.
I think what's confusing me is when you say people have the "moral right" to free speech. How are you reconciling the moral right with the legal right, exactly?

Originally Posted by KJMW View Post
Perhaps lessons in schools should be called 'Abuse of free speech and free expression' Teach people that free speech isn't a weapon but rather a gift that if abused will eventually result in more laws restricting it. Some hope!!!
Well I think that is exactly what schools are trying to do isn't it? Next time you are talking to a French 15 or 16 year old, ask them about freedom of expression and ask them what they draw the line between what's OK and what isn't. You'll probably be surprised at how clearly they understand it.

This page https://eduscol.education.fr/cid1542...xpression.html explains why this is considered such an important topic and outlines how it is addressed in schools, I'd be interested in your reaction. Personally I couldn't see anything to disagree with.

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