French values

Old Oct 18th 2020, 2:59 pm
  #16  
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Default Re: French values

Originally Posted by Pulaski View Post
[Snipped out of a sticky thread on home schooling in France.]

It seems that Macron has his work cut out to instill liberal "French values" in elements of the minority communities.
Well if he wants to teach muslim children whos parents work hard, don't drink and are very loyal and close knit families to get as drunk as these students around here are doing every night and cavort around like they do I think he is simply on the wrong track. Wine and parties seem to be the highest french values I have watched being experienced by nearly everyone, aside from appaling plumbing.
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Old Oct 18th 2020, 3:38 pm
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Default Re: French values

Originally Posted by tumbleweedly View Post
Well if he wants to teach muslim children whos parents work hard, don't drink and are very loyal and close knit families to get as drunk as these students around here are doing every night and cavort around like they do I think he is simply on the wrong track. Wine and parties seem to be the highest french values I have watched being experienced by nearly everyone, aside from appaling plumbing.
I don't think that is the plan exactly.
I do sympathise, I'm sure I wouldn't enjoy watching the student party experience night after night any more than you do but fortunately I don't live in a university town so I don't have to. But partying and getting drunk is what students do, I don't think it's unique to France, for some reason young people seem to think the best way of getting to know each other at the beginning of term is everyone getting drunk together.,
On the scale of behaving badly, it's surely better than cutting their tutors' heads off.




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Old Oct 18th 2020, 3:59 pm
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Default Re: French values

Originally Posted by EuroTrash View Post
I don't think that is the plan exactly. ....
I think any government plan to control what people should "think". Is doomed to failure. Eastern Europe managed it for about 45 years, before the system collapsed, with ugly consequences in Yugoslavia.
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Old Oct 18th 2020, 4:31 pm
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Default Re: French values

Originally Posted by Pulaski View Post
I think any government plan to control what people should "think". Is doomed to failure. Eastern Europe managed it for about 45 years, before the system collapsed, with ugly consequences in Yugoslavia.
We've got more sophisticated, that's all. Think Cambridge Analytica.
You can use social media to manipulate people so that they don't even realise they're being manipulated and controlled.
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Old Oct 18th 2020, 4:33 pm
  #20  
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Default Re: French values

Originally Posted by tumbleweedly View Post
Well if he wants to teach muslim children whos parents work hard, don't drink and are very loyal and close knit families to get as drunk as these students around here are doing every night and cavort around like they do I think he is simply on the wrong track. Wine and parties seem to be the highest french values I have watched being experienced by nearly everyone, aside from appaling plumbing.
Once again, sorry that you're suffering from your location. Which Uni town do you live in? Is there no possibility of moving elsewhere?
Back on topic, Prés. Macron will be targetting Islamic extremists who indoctrinate their children, alienating them from "French values", not decent Muslim parents that you describe....
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Old Oct 18th 2020, 6:38 pm
  #21  
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Default Re: French values

Originally Posted by EuroTrash View Post
No of course they don't. In French law everybody the right to express their opinions about a religion, a political belief etc. Nobody has the legal let along the moral right to insult an invidual because of their race, religion, political affiliation or sexual orientation.


I'm not quite following you here. If person A has expressed their view on a religion or whatever and not insulted any individual, then it's person B who punches them on the nose that is in the wrong. If person A has stepped over the line and insulted an individual then they are in the wrong, they can't hide behind the right of free speech.
I think what's confusing me is when you say people have the "moral right" to free speech. How are you reconciling the moral right with the legal right, exactly?


Well I think that is exactly what schools are trying to do isn't it? Next time you are talking to a French 15 or 16 year old, ask them about freedom of expression and ask them what they draw the line between what's OK and what isn't. You'll probably be surprised at how clearly they understand it.

This page https://eduscol.education.fr/cid1542...xpression.html explains why this is considered such an important topic and outlines how it is addressed in schools, I'd be interested in your reaction. Personally I couldn't see anything to disagree with.
Your first sentence, we agree.
Your second paragraph: We agree that should someone react badly to someone who hasn't insulted them then it is wrong, I can't even think it could happen! Though some of course simply like to argue!

Reconciling moral-Legal: Legally speaking there is nothing wrong if I were to say to you I think your wife is as ugly as sin!! Morally though should freedom of speech allow me to say such a thing and should I be surprised if you reacted violently? I don't think so. Why should I simply be allowed to insult you and your wife? That is what I meant by a moral aspect. Perhaps not the best example but I'm sure you follow my drift.

With regards students: I feel sure the vast majority understand the difference between free speech and insulting someone, I speak to people all the time and that understanding is quite fundamental. The point in this case isn't, in fact , the students is it? It wasn't a student who caused the reaction it was the teacher. He should, in my view, be teaching the values of free speech and not that you can say or do what the hell you like because that is free speech!

Free speech and free expression comes with a responsibility. We all have a duty to be careful with what we say and how we say it. I feel sure the teacher could have discussed with his students Muslim culture, history and traditions without the need to display a picture that was considered by some to be extremely offensive. The teacher must have known that. What hope is there is people are led to believe that you can freely insult?

Muslims have condemned the murder and rightly so but little has been said, in fact nothing, in the media about how they feel about the Prophet being depicted as he was. My betting is that they feel quite insulted.

We obviously will not agree but my point of view is that gratuitously offending someone isn't about free speech, it is simply very bad behaviour.
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Old Oct 18th 2020, 7:04 pm
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Default Re: French values

I generally agree with you KJMW.
But, I wasn't there so I can't have an opinion whether the cartoons he showed were in fact offensive or whether it was something that should have been well within the bounds of tolerance. Have you seen the cartoons, if so could you give a link? Because, it all hinges on that, really. I assumed they were something fairly mainstream.
Also I don't know what lesson it was. Was it actually a lesson about Muslim culture or was it, in fact, a lesson about free expression? Again, the context makes a big difference. And I don't know the facts.

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Old Oct 18th 2020, 9:13 pm
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Default Re: French values

Originally Posted by EuroTrash View Post
Well here is what everybody is supposed to learn as part of the immigration and integration process they go through in between entering France on a visa, and being given their carte de séjour.

https://www.immigration.interieur.go...AAmes%20droits.

In the context of immigration I wonder whether this is a second/third/fourth generation issue, in that the immigrant generation would have been through the integration process and presumably assimilated "French values" to some extent, and were presumably glad to do so since they presumably made an active choice to move here. But their children would not have gone through immigration and integration procedures and the parents may not necessarily have passed those values on effectively, and the next generation may even be angry with their parents for "selling out".
There are a lot of "presumably's" in there because I don't know enough about these things to say whether that does happen, I am just suggesting that it might.
The French school system would attempt to instill those values; a backward religion fundamentally at odds with liberte, egalite and fraternite is the key issue here.
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Old Oct 18th 2020, 9:22 pm
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Default Re: French values

Originally Posted by KJMW View Post
We all have a duty to be careful with what we say and how we say it.
This is the thing, isn't it.
Feeling obliged to be careful of what you say, and having to bite your tongue if you think somebody might take offence, is a slippery slope.

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Old Oct 19th 2020, 4:09 am
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Default Re: French values

Originally Posted by EuroTrash View Post
I generally agree with you KJMW.
But, I wasn't there so I can't have an opinion whether the cartoons he showed were in fact offensive or whether it was something that should have been well within the bounds of tolerance. Have you seen the cartoons, if so could you give a link? Because, it all hinges on that, really. I assumed they were something fairly mainstream.
Also I don't know what lesson it was. Was it actually a lesson about Muslim culture or was it, in fact, a lesson about free expression? Again, the context makes a big difference. And I don't know the facts.
Like you I wasn't there either and have to rely on media reporting, always 'iffy' at best!!! It was reported that he was giving a lesson on 'freedom of expression' and showed the students a caricature of a nude Prophet. Quite obviously the lesson , at least, included something about the Muslim religion and the caricature shown isn't in dispute. That is all I know I'm afraid and have no links.
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Old Oct 19th 2020, 4:22 am
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Default Re: French values

Originally Posted by EuroTrash View Post
This is the thing, isn't it.
Feeling obliged to be careful of what you say, and having to bite your tongue if you think somebody might take offence, is a slippery slope.
I take your point but it isn't strictly the giving of offence that is the problem. The problem is the language used in giving that offence. I sat at a dinner table yesterday with a group of French friends. The subject of the decapitation came up and one of the guests launched into a very strong diatribe concerning foreigners ending with the usual, 'If they don't or won't conform then they should shove off; leave!
That my wife and I were sitting there caused several to simply glance down at the table or examine the glass of wine in front of them in mild embarrassment.
I'm sure that most, if not all, were in agreement but as we were there they perhaps felt the language used was too strong and none supported his outburst. Had he not used such strong language It is possible to still be offended but not in an angry and retaliatory fashion. I actually agreed with him but would have put it differently, hopefully offending no-one!! Brexit also came up and I managed to put my view without being covered in gravy; or worse!!!
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Old Oct 19th 2020, 6:17 am
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Default Re: French values

“It is possible to still be offended but not in an angry and retaliatory fashion.”

Exactly.


Satire plays a very useful role. It pricks our balloons: our pomposity, our hypocrisy, the idiocy of our beliefs, of the religious and other stories we choose to tell ourselves about the past and the future and how things should be now.
You can’t do satire without offending people. It’s just not possible.
So which do you want: a society where the overriding concern is not to cause offence and where we all tiptoe around each other? Where people feel they have to keep their true opinions buried away and limit themselves to making bland anodine statements in public? Or a society where people are able to engage in rumbustious debate and where, when it comes to exposing our foibles and puncturing our self-importance, everyone is considered fair game.

Incidentally, I seem to remember Charlie Hebdo laying into the Catholic Church on more than one occasion. But I don’t recall any beheadings. Or even non-Catholics expressing sympathy for the targets of the cartoons and worrying them feeling “quite insulted”.

Funny how how this eagerness to bend over backwards to appease only extends to “scary” religions where nutters are likely to come after you with a machete.


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Old Oct 19th 2020, 6:35 am
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Default Re: French values

Originally Posted by Helen1964 View Post
“It is possible to still be offended but not in an angry and retaliatory fashion.”

Exactly.


Satire plays a very useful role. It pricks our balloons: our pomposity, our hypocrisy, the idiocy of our beliefs, of the religious and other stories we choose to tell ourselves about the past and the future and how things should be now.
You can’t do satire without offending people. It’s just not possible.
So which do you want: a society where the overriding concern is not to cause offence and where we all tiptoe around each other? Where people feel they have to keep their true opinions buried away and limit themselves to making bland anodine statements in public? Or a society where people are able to engage in rumbustious debate and where, when it comes to exposing our foibles and puncturing our self-importance, everyone is considered fair game.

Incidentally, I seem to remember Charlie Hebdo laying into the Catholic Church on more than one occasion. But I don’t recall any beheadings. Or even non-Catholics expressing sympathy for the targets of the cartoons and worrying them feeling “quite insulted”.

Funny how how this eagerness to bend over backwards to appease only extends to “scary” religions where nutters are likely to come after you with a machete.
I fundamentally agree with you. However, and isn't there always an 'however'? Satire, humour and comment are one thing and providing it is clear that it is humour then I agree, go-ahead even if the humour isn't to everyones taste. Gratuitous insult is something else I feel. In this particular case, and as far as I'm aware this wasn't a case of humour or satire. The showing of a caricature of a religious leader in the nude was bound to receive a strong reaction. With the right to free expression and free speech does come a responsibility to use it intelligently. No-one should be murdered for acting badly that is absolute but there will always be controversy and bad tempered confrontations because some people don't know how to use 'free speech' without being offensive.
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Old Oct 19th 2020, 7:19 am
  #29  
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Default Re: French values

On a lighter note, I raised a smile at the KJMW comment addressed to ET, "if I were to say to you I think your wife is as ugly as sin!
I may be wrong, but somehow I doubt very much that ETrash has a 'wife'...............
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Old Oct 19th 2020, 7:44 am
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"The showing of a caricature of a religious leader in the nude was bound to receive a strong reaction."
Only because the people the teacher was showing it to seem to think they're entitled to repond with physical violence.
I was brought up as a staunch Northern Irish Protestant in a school run by Methodists. You could have shown my class a caricature of Ian Paisley or Jesus in the altogether and we probably would have had a good chortle. There would have been a few angry letters from parents. End of story.

I guess my problem with your attitude is that it requires us to apply double standards. Going so far with one group, while treating another with kid gloves. I know we all do this on a personal level, every day in our interaction with each other. I'll take liberties with one friend that I wouldn't with another. When the media and the Establishment starting doing it and it becomes a widely accepted practice, though, that's a different matter.

I see Spitting Image is back. Not sure how easy it will be to view it from France but I for one will be hoping they have the b*lls not to reserve their savage satire for Christians and the pale-skinned and that ethnic minorities are as well represented among the butts of their humour as they - quite rightly - want to be in other areas of TV.

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