cyrian

There is also the illusion that the UK has no manufacturing output.
This was famously stated by Sarkozy a few years ago.
In fact the UK is the 7th in size for GDP Germany is 4th and France is 5th.
Sarkozy also stated that the UK had no car manufacturing industry.
Wrong again.
We have Honda; Toyota; Nissan; Land Rover; Jaguar & JCB (ok not a car) and the EU is the major destination for many of these.
The EU and our membership thereof means that we have free access to one of our major markets.

cjm

What seems not to have been addressed (not here but in the political world of parties) is how would UK be treated if we left the EU? Yes, we manufacture, JLR being a key benchmark and that may not change, though I do see more French branded cars driven in France than non French branded.
But would there be a backlash? Could the wealthier nations of Europe simply say, sod you? I have no answers. I can only pose questions that come to mind.
I will enter a political element, in that there are flag waiving parties/all UK non white British are sucking us dry that do concern me.

PDN

Even then it won't happen - it will hit too many of their business supporters in the pocket. This is just a pap to their Little England supporters.
To quote a very old saying 'How do you know when a politician is lying - the lips move'.

morgoneze

dont get your self in a tiz its all a scam cameron is not coming out of the eu he promised to have a referendum when he got in and now he isnt but if we voted him in again guess what ? he promises a referendum total rubbish a con merchant is what he is

Domino

that sounds very Spanish - but it is Clegg who is married to a Spaniard

Jon-Bxl

Whether or not its just politico-talk from DC, I actually believe that the UK would vote 'No' IF a referendum was held. They would certainly do it today IMHO.

I suppose if a date was actually set then we would get the political campaigning on both sides more focussed on us. So we would hear both sides of the story, but gut-fell tells me that even then we would vote no. Its such a popular thing that DC has used it for electioneering reasons - as a major 'give' to be re-elected. Showing a strong 'No' bias in the UK, I think, as opposed to undecided people wanting to hear a reasoned debate, then voting.

Just my gut feel. What that 'No' would mean for all the expats.... who knows, that's a biggie!

Jon

EuroTrash

Sorry to be dim but what would NO mean, would it mean no we don't come out of Europe or no we don't stay in Europe? Not that I'm much bothered either way, but I like to know which way the wind is blowing

Novocastrian

Remarkable how a two letter word can cause such universal confusion. I'm reminded of the 1995 referendum about Quebec's separation from the rest of Canada, which read...

"Acceptez-vous que le Québec devienne souverain, après avoir offert formellement au Canada un nouveau partenariat économique et politique, dans le cadre du projet de loi sur l'avenir du Québec et de l'entente signée le 12 juin 1995?"

In English...

"Do you agree that Quebec should become sovereign after having made a formal offer to Canada for a new economic and political partnership within the scope of the bill respecting the future of Quebec and of the agreement signed on June 12, 1995?"

Yes or no? Or possibly What the f**k?

bigglesworth

Most referendums are won on how the question is phrased. People generally prefer the status quo.
Which is why, despite considerable public opposition to ENTERING the Common Market, Mr Heath tricked Britain in, and a referendum was then held on whether we should stay in. We were in fact never asked if we wanted to join in the first place.

Now, (and I speak as one who voted out 40 years ago, and would do so again), I suspect that, unless the approaching EU train crash happens first, we would once again vote to stay in. We would once more "keep a-hold of nurse for fear of finding something worse".

All three mainstream parties would campaign for a Yes vote, plus of course the BBC and the overwhelming majority of the media, and the No campaign will simply be drowned out again.

And yet again we would find the costs far higher than we were led to believe in the first place. Not a happy prospect, whatever the outcome

Domino

but when it came to the vote the "silent majority" seemed to think that it was the best option for the future
it is usually those who oppose something that have the biggest mouths but turn out to actually be in the minority

we made enough comment about Germany and France blocking our entry for so many years "in case we tried to take it over" I believe we should see it through.
the last thing I want is for the UK to be left on the sidelines and blamed for the failure of the project if that should happen.

better to be in there fighting for the reform that is needed than kicking tin cans down the street like Johnny Nomates.

bigglesworth

I am always surprised at people who claim to know what the "silent majority" believe. On balance I believe that, as I said, most of us opt for the status quo ante, rather than an uncertain future.

I don't actually think it matters very much. Europe is a small region of the world, soon to be the least important of half a dozen such, that seems bent on shooting itself in as many feet at once as it can find.

Maybe it will survive as one entity. It really won't matter one way or another. Apart of course from the terrible suffering it chooses to impose upon the peoples
of Europe

EuroTrash

That's precisely why we have ballots and votes isn't it, to find out what the silent ones believe, as opposed to those who shout the loudest?

I can't see the UK making a clean break and neither can I see it making a full commitment. It'll keep sitting on the fence. Whether it lets most of its Rs hang over the EU side of the fence and calls itself 'in', or it shifts most of its Rs over the other way and calls itself 'out', really it will make very little difference. It's a smalll island, it will still need to have treaties and agreements and borrowing and imports and exports - when you're a small island and you are nowhere near self-sufficient, being Johnny Nomates is not an option.

bigglesworth

ET I absolutely agree but then fence sitting is what the UK has pursued as a positive (and effective) policy for centuries. "Splendid isolation" was always a balancing act, and in fact required a ruthless focus on what was in the best interests of Britain.

I myself see little prospect of Europe reforming itself or of it being reformed. If It was going to happen, it would have happened by now.

I personally would rather the referendum were delayed,as the waters the EU is currently seeking to navigate are shark infested indeed, and there is a very great risk that alarmist and populist positions will hold greater sway than they might otherwise.
But as I say, it does not matter much. Without substantial reform now (not in five years time) the EU will die. The USA is in recovery now, and interest rates WILL rise.
Germany cannot afford the level of support required now; it certainly will not continue if Merkel gets re -elected; it absolutely cannot as the population continues to decline. And Germans have always been quite good at arithmetic.
All we poor mortals can do is hope that it slowly disintegrates rather than blows apart. The precedent set by the Government's repatriation of some limited powers is quite extraordinarily good news.

Domino

so you would marry when the man/woman looks alright, has plenty of money and keeps you happy
now s/he is getting a bit threadbare, out of work you will want to walk out of the marriage

makes sense

`

bigglesworth

Domino
So on your analogy, you married for money, and like a loyal partner are paying your partners debts (most of which were hidden from you) as said partner slowly (and soon rapidly) drags you down into penury.

I, on the other hand, actually believed in my country, trusted that we would overcome our difficulties, and that we would regain our place in the world.

And see no reason why we should be liable for the debts of a group of serial liars and fraudsters.

But it will, in the end, come to the same thing. There is simply not enough money in the world to keep this particular Ponzi scheme on the road.

And just to correct your analogy, how on earth is a lifelong Eurosceptic to blame for the bad marriage the Euroloonies got themselves into?