Voting Rights
 

You'd think that within the European Union at least, where the treaties between member states grant to all European citizens the right to live and work in any of the member states, this would also include the right to vote in national elections. However, we can only participate in municipal and European elections where we reside - in my case France- but there is no such right for national elections. I also find that I cannot vote in national elections in the UK either, the law as it stands denying the right to vote after a period of 15 years as a non-resident.
Now resident in Spain, James Preston having just lost his right to vote due to the 15 year rule, is so incensed that at his own risk of covering the costs of up to £20,000 should he lose, he is currently challenging the British Government in the high courts in London over this ruling.
If you've been out of the UK since you were say 18 years old for 15 years or more you'd have lost your right to vote there from when you were 33.
Now that I am retired I seem to have more time to think about these things than when I was younger, with perhaps more important things to worry about then! However, I'm voicing my support of James Preston.

Re: Voting Rights
 

Just to clarify who James Preston actually is, he's not the American actor of the same name that you will find e.g. on Wikipedia.
The James Preston I'm talking about is a British expat living in Spain and you can find out more about his case in the high courts in London and further background on the whole issue of our voting rights by going to www.votes-for-expat-brits.com.

Re: Voting Rights
 

It's strange but if you go to one of the past news stories on this website (britishexpats/news/latest/expats-general-election/), you'll find the British Electoral Commission before the last general election, telling us that there are more than 5 million British citizens living abroad but less than 13,000 overseas voters are on the electoral roll.
Perhaps we are just not interested in what happens back in the UK, despite the Internet and 24-hour rolling news channels keeping us in touch where ever we are around the world?

Re: Voting Rights
 

In response to comments from expat Brits visiting our website (http://www.votes-for-expat-brits.com ) we have now amended the home page to provide a more easily accessible and direct link (Sign up and show your support) to our on-line petition.

Re: Voting Rights
 

One major complaint of those responding to our on-line poll on British expatriate voting rights, particularly from Canada and Australia, is the fact that their UK state pensions are frozen with no indexation to inflation and they have no rights to show their dissatisfaction via the ballot box in UK general elections.

Re: Voting Rights
 

Thats not generally the case though, UK pensions are not frozen in most EU countries at the moment and continue to get indexation

Re: Voting Rights
 

Thanks for your response , Mitzyboy. I think this is also the case for UK pensions in the USA through a bilateral agreement.

Re: Voting Rights
 

funny that pensioners living in these "old commonwealth" countries don't get indexation - is it their fault or ours ??
presumably their expats don't get the indexation either ??

Re: Voting Rights
 

Yes, without a bilateral agreement such as exists between the UK and the USA, I think the expats from these "old Commomwealth" countries wouldn't I expect get the indexation either if they were living in the UK. It's probably something to do with the much greater numbers of expatriate British retiring in Australia or Canada compared with their counterparts from these countries retiring in the UK, which would imply a special agreement with the USA. US expatriates are taxed on their worldwide income where ever they are resident but they retain the right to vote in their national elections (unlike the British).

Re: Voting Rights
 

Sorry Rod
by your postings I had assumed you were knowledgable on these matters.

the uk has bi-lateral agreements with other countries other than US and EU so what is the situation there.

as to votes - which as we know can be bought, most people will vote for one of two situations
a) their local (i.e. Spanish\French\German etc) environment
b) their old UK environment

Having been born in Hertfordshire, I have no feelings for that county leaving in 1963 to join the Royal Navy. I feel more at home with my current East Anglian county having lived here since 1974. However, with my OH living in Granada, Andalusia, for the past 2 years I find daily I have more affinity to what is happening in Spain, Andalusia and Granada than I do in my current abode. It is history, past and gone whereas Granada is my future....

How will you get people to vote in the UK elections ?? With difficulty, as in the Uk voting (unlike Australia) is not a legal requirement. Why do you think we have such difficulty in getting a government - and it will get worse and voters come to the conclusion their vote is actually worthless - whether they live in Runcorn, Ruislip or Cadiz. It is exceedingly rare for a foreign postal vote to change the course of an election (in fact has it ever happened?). Remember, servicemen who bother to get a postal vote know their vote is unlikely to topple anyone, letalone change the course of history.

rgds

Re: Voting Rights
 

Thanks for your feedback Domino. Indeed, I'm no expert on these state pension matters but have been out of the country since 1978, originally from Cambridge but now retired and living in France (with an indexed pension!) and have not voted since leaving the UK although being aware of being able to vote in local and European elections in France. With modern communications it's possible to follow what's going on in the UK and as I do not have French citizenship I feel more affinity with the UK than France. Although I accept that being able to vote does not necessarily make a difference, it seems odd that I have lost the right to vote in my home country when I still pay taxes on a property, bank accounts and share dividends we own there and that I live within a European Union based on the free movement of goods, services and labour within it. My learning curve on these matters is quite steep having been asked to set up and administer the website www.votes-for-expat-brits.com and I appreciate the feedback from people like yourself who are taking the trouble to respond and develop the debate on the question of British expatriate voting rights.

Re: Voting Rights
 

Rod, may i suggest you raise the matter with an MEP ??

when our representatives in the Mother of Parliaments are voted in by obtaining 33% of a 45% turnout, then either alot of people are on holiday or there is just general apathy. The vote was hard fought for by men and women who gave up their lives for it, but over a short period of time it has become a wasted moment. If it actually became of some use then perhaps more people would use it.
as was demonstrated by the poll tax fiasco, people will not register to vote because they are more worried about the state using their registration against them - mind you, some do have a reason to not want to be found.

if i lose the right to vote because I have changed my domicile then quite honestly it won't change my life decisions. But see me in 10 years time and things may be different.

rgds

Re: Voting Rights
 

Hello Domino,
Actually the matter of British expatriate voting rights has been raised with visiting MEPs and MPs who have all made the right supportive sounding responses but so far with no discernible effect back in London. Your example of the Poll Tax getting people out to vote is a good one and I think the turnout for the Alternative Vote referendum wasn't bad. However, the generally low voter turnout is used by some of those expatriates feeling deprived of the right to vote to ask why when they are motivated to vote, they are not allowed?

Re: Voting Rights
 

Rod
not sure if I put that right or not
but when it came to Poll Tax (as we know a tax against person rather than property) people didn't put their names down on the annual voter registration so that there were ISTR over 2million people who went "missing". This was because they felt it was another document listing them for government purposes which could be used to make them pay the poll tax. Despite protestations that there is a Chinese Wall around the voting records, how can that be true when councils are selling the information to private companies... :frown:
I believe many of the missing millions have still not surfaced - well its one way of ensuring you don't get junk mail.. :thumbup:

I don't see the AV voting turnout as being a success, all it did was make each of the camps say they won a moral victory. I could never see AV working, like it or not but FPTP is part of life in so many ways. Imagine explaining to your child who broke the tape that they only came second because the winner acquired the points of 2 other runners...:(

having spent time in the RN I lost my affinity for my home town and its political needs. I never felt a need to vote in any elections, postal or otherwise. Why should expats, who want to sever their taxation ties etc etc with the Uk to take advantage of their new home country want to vote in an election for a person they have never met, will never meet, have no idea of their true politics. Its just a vote for the Red, Blue etc and has nothing to do with their needs from the politicians.
Methinks there are too many crocodile tears in this - better to take part in local politics and get the pavement fixed you are walking on rather than the pavement you will never walk on.
rgds

Re: Voting Rights
 

Hello Domino,
I like your last sentence about crocodile tears etc. which I think sums up very well the pragmatic position you have adopted based on your past experience. My memory of the Poll Tax didn't extend to the fact of many missing voters and why and so your comments overall provide interesting input from an expatriate also with experience of life in the Royal Navy and having no particular political allegiance (I think).

Re: Voting Rights
 

Rod
glad the crocodile tears pleased you - I give you my permission to use it as you see fit :)

I come from a working class family, mother was in service at the big house until she married. Father was from Welsh mining family, told by his older brothers they didn't want to see his face down the mines - for his own good. So he moved to Hertfordshire. If he was a stick of rock you would have seen LABOUR and UNIONS running through him.
I have never shared my parents political leanings, perhaps their fault for ensuring I could read the Daily Mirror before I went to school at 5, where many of my compatriats had difficulty with words letalone sentences. But they probably went on to do better in life than I did

ISTR you are not resident in the Uk, so suggest you get someone to do some legwork for you. Gain access to the Electoral Roll for various streets you know and love - see who is (or isn't) on there. You would also be surprised at how the surnames of certain couples are not the same. But you would also see how many houses are not on the ER because the form has been returned marked with Empty\Gone Away and various other statements. (Note: ER isn't confidential as it is available in city libraries for perusal and copying)
Not putting name on the ER is something imported from Scotland after their "trial".
The same goes for the Census, where many people claimed they were not in the house at the time - but if you could drill down you won't find them visiting anywhere else.
a quick check on 192.com may also show up a number of anomolies, but they don't seem to cleanse the old information they have. However, when you see 9 living in a 2 up 2 down in certain parts of a city you know its right :thumbdown:

The Benefit dept of councils use all sorts of means to check the information they hold on people. I have seen one council that referred to 10year old information as proof of a residency.

Big Brother is alive and well, there is enough about expats held in potentially insecure filing cabinets in DWP Newcastle.
rgds

Re: Voting Rights
 

Thanks for that , Domino. We both come from working class backgrounds with Labour voting parents but I must admit that I have voted for both Labour and the Conservatives in the past, depending on which constituency I was living in at the time and whether it might make a difference. My wife is Welsh by the way and comes from Anglesey in North Wales from where I am sending this response. Through her we are both members of the Paris Welsh Society (despite me being English) and when I speak to the younger members from South Wales living in Paris there remain very raw memories and a gut-hatred of Mrs Thatcher passed down from the former mining communities that were left with no hope of further employment as they felt it at the time.
You are certainly very clued up on the seeming of data records collected on citizens in the UK whether for the ER or census although you suggest that Big Brother in Newcastle might know more about us expatriates than is healthy for us!

Re: Voting Rights
 

Rod
Heath asked us a simple question "who runs this country Me or the Miners" and we told him the Miners giving us another Labour govt we really didnt need
Thatcher was determined that would not happen on her watch. That many of those miners knew their mines were finished with no reserve didn't matter, they just needed someone to blame. The lady made many tough decisions a lot of males would have balked at. It is wrong to instill a hatred into the next generation(s) without them understanding what it is really about. The thought of Kinnock and his Glenis at No 10 makes me shudder.

having been involved in security and data protection for many years may I suggest an exercise for you?
think of someone you know well, possibly who is director of a company, even a small one.
enter their name into Google and look for the hits from 192.com, Linkdin, Facebook, a couple of sites listing directorships such as Jordans and Companiesintheuk.co.uk
you will be amazed at how much information on individuals there is in the public domain. As I said previous, add to that a pleasant morning in the local library looking at the electoral roll - you will be given the full version not the abbreviated one.

I have a shredder and shred all papers\envelopes etc with names, addresses, figures on etc etc. (inc shopping till receipts cos they show part of credit card no) old credit cards are cut into at least 10 pieces and disposed of over 2 bin collections.

remember that Big Brother in Newcastle has all the pension records for those retiring home or abroad, there is a link to HMRC where you don't have to give your permission.
your medical records, even if now living abroad, are kept for up to 40 years dependent on what you have had wrong with you
when driving your car down the road and you get zapped by an ANPR camera it will check your tax, insurance, MOT, are in date and anything ekse outstanding.

Paranoid?? Me?? what gave you that idea :confused:
just surprised with all that surveillance (which doesnt include cctv when walking down the street) that I need to register on the ER - someone could probably do it for me :eek:
rgds
Dom

Re: Voting Rights
 

Hello Domino,
I should have perhaps guessed that'd you been in the security and data protection business!
From what you say I can see how easy it is for journalists also to collect all sorts of information about individuals and hence the current phone hacking controversy in the UK involving the now defunct News of the World. Young people in particular don't seem to care how much they freely reveal of themselves on these social networking sites such as Facebook and , taking your advice with a Google search on a friend of mine, up he came top of the list with his Linked-In business profile. I actually wrote a reference on Linked-In for a young salesman who worked for me down in South Africa and now find myself also posted there as an independent telecommunications professional (their definition not mine!) without any actual application to join on my part. I've have also only just recently got rid (I hope) of a bad-debt chasing agency which kept sending me letters and telephoning me about a person with my surname and supposedly living at my address and which has given me pause for thought on my personal data protection practices. Your information security input is well appreciated, therefore, along with your comments on Margaret Thatcher (should I dare to raise the matter again with my friends from South Wales!).

Re: Voting Rights
 

well Rod, it's easy - just go up to someone you don't know and ask them to give you their telephone no's, credit card no etc etc and duck as they try to hit you. Instead just walk behind them after they have just bought something and pick up their dropped rubbish to get started.

I used to be involved in a business handling client staff information etc. Regualarly I was asked "should this go for shredding?" to which my response was "if in doubt - shred it !!). Life is too short to debate it !!..
We shredded 2tonnes of confidential information every month, all stored in locked wheelie bins. in the event of something being put in the wrong place access was severely restricted to ensure no cross fertilisation between different company files. also destroyed a tonne of cd's and tapes every quarter. The whole lot only cost around £1500-£2000pa - a very low cost to ensure we were leak proof. I never charged for my random walkrounds in the evening checking bins, but I did find the occaisional laptop not put away which were "stolen" for the night. (6 on one Friday evening).

Now you have seen what I mean, try Googling for Rod_ph and see that all posts on here are there as well. So someone only has to know your "handle" or "street name" to start cracking you open. Passwords can also be cracked in a similar manner....:eek:

Having had to sign the Official Secrets Act twice, from an occupation in an era when it was important to maintain secrecy I shudder when I hear of DPA breeches. It is lack of discipline, lack of integrity and more importantly lack of interest. And I don't believe the Commissioner is active enough to ensure directors and managers take responsibility.

Having your identity cloned is much larger problem than people realise. My cc was cloned at petron station (lots of authorities knew about it but didnt tell anyone) and my account was rifled. Took ages to resolve but the final cracker was when I proved I had used another card for petrol and food from Morrisons in the Midlands when the rogue card was being used in Marks & Spencers in Brighton.

The postmen around here are currently students on leave from uni, dumped on an estate without a map. Remember last year a guy standing at the bottom of the drive holding up a letter and comparing the number on the letter with the number on the front door.

by the way, ISTR you can get your information removed from the Linkedin website on request
rgds
Dom

Re: Voting Rights
 

Listen both ........ I have a friend who can find anyone through the internet. I dont even ask him how he does it, but we traced a scammer years ago who had ripped off a forum member, and got his address, full name and al kinds of stuff on him.

He once did a check on me just out of interest, and it was frightening. Caused me to change quite a few things. You're never safe, believe me, if someone who knows how is determined enough

Re: Voting Rights
 

would never disagree - the idea is to endeavour not to get yourself into that situation.
so many people would be horrified at how much there is out there on them and brought together by the finest of filiments.
much information is "as leaky as a sieve", as I have indicated, in the uk you can tick to have your name removed from the list sold to the likes of 192.com et al, but you can walk into a library and ask for a copy which is the full version - then walk over to a copier and walk out with a copy.

the phone hacking saga will carry on and on - the guy whose name is most in the frame was paid full time and was just feeding the information. he will not be the only one as other papers will have wanted their own source(s).

I don't make myself out to be a guru on this stuff, perhaps I could have been but too many other things got in the way. All I know is I do what I can to mitigate the possibilities by using various means, including my manic shredding of till receipts.

I have been on this site for more than 45secs and you will be able to find me............:eek:

Re: Voting Rights
 

Hello Domino,
I've just got back from entertaining my grandchildren on the beach which can be quite time consuming!
Anyway, your "guru-like" expertise on our personal security protection seems pretty adequate to me. It's an interesting thread which has taken me away from my original theme but is drawing in visitors. As you point out all newspapers have been in this phone-hacking type of information gathering exercise but the others seem to be taking the opportunity to use this to attack those in the News International Group. Even Piers Morgan is denying having anything to do with this sort of thing when editor of the NOTW and then the Mirror. Having clawed his way up the greasy pole at such a young age it's difficult to believe! As I understand it, if you telephone a newsdesk they automatically record your number just in case it might be useful in the future.

Re: Voting Rights
 

So why not become a French citizen? In most EU/EEA states British citizens can apply for local citizenship after 5-8 years and in the majority of countries, you're allowed to keep British citizenship.

Re: Voting Rights
 

When you are moving around - and I've lived in Belgium, France, South Africa and now France again - when do I decide what nationality I should apply for in order to vote in national elections? The one constant seems to be that I'm British.

Re: Voting Rights
 

why become a Frenchman, German or whatever, we are already citizens of the European Union. When we apply for things like National Insurance No and more especially Residence status in a country within the EU that should give us the right to vote in the country where we are resident. The result of that election may (not) have a bearing on our future(s).

The "right to vote" would therefore be something transferrable as the individual moves from one State to another within the Union. It would also enable that invididual to make a valid and worthwhile contribution to the community they are living (and working) in. (in the same way as we may move from Sussex to Cornwall)
This would not deny the rights of the individual to be known by their Nationality, which would not change due to a change in voting rights..

The term "ethnic origin" should be banned. In the uk we have ethnicity reporting forms that allow recognition of some individuals by a mix of their nationality and an area grouping i.e. Asian Pakistani, Asian Indian, Black Carribean, etc when an Englishman is lucky to be able to tick a box which says White or White European. That is denying the Englishman recognition of his national roots, which go back a couple of thousand years. And yet this is the route approved by........................The Racial Equality Commission.! !

I refuse to accept the term British because it is much devalued "nationality" which is sold to those incomers who can pass a "tick the box" test and receive a certificate from the local mayor. Hence on forms I will tick "Other" and put English. Which has caused some consternation when filling in some security forms as they don't know what to do.

So in summation - everyone keeps their Nationality as born or formally adopted (and giving up all others) and uses their Citizenship to allow them to vote in elections in the country where they reside. (subject to registering).

Or take the Tebbitt "cricket test" - whether British citizens from ethnic minorities support, in a cricket match, England or their country of origin.

rgds

Re: Voting Rights
 

Hi Rod
hope the grandchildren didn't make you too tired, it gets to the aching bones in the morning :eek:
but its nice to spend time with them as it gives a different perspective to life and goes to underline the reasons why.:thumbup:

The likes of Morgan et al knew their paper had a "way in" to such information. I doubt very very much if all these deniers are telling the truth, more likely it is what they have talked themselves into this being the truth, having put their hands over ears and mumbled LA LA LA LA LA LA LA

Unless Mulcaire was in the pay of all of the papers there are others who have also been doing exactly the same thing - so who are they.?
It is significant that Sara Payne's personal mobile appears to have been untouched - but only a limited number of people knew she had one paid for by the NOTW, which "escaped attention" the first time round.

This type of affair gives lie to the often mouthed words "I have to ask you a few questions for security purposes"
And where is the Information Commisioner in all this.? So far as I am aware - very quiet indeed.:thumbdown:

Rod, I hope you haven't spent too much on that nice new shredder you have rushed out to buy - when next in UK you could give a reasonable one from Maplin, but always go for the more epensive ones, cheap can be very false economy.
rgds
Dom

Re: Voting Rights
 

Because the European Union is not a country. So you are still a foreigner unless you become a citizen of your country of residence.

There are those who would aspire for the European Union to become a sovereign state in its own right, replacing the member states. The European Treaties have brought this state of affairs fairly close, but it's also clear that any such structure will be about as stable as the former Yugoslavia.

Re: Voting Rights
 

so I can go out and get a flag made, invite countries to send their duly elected representatives to attend meetings, levy duties, put people and countries through a court and fine them €millions, have people moving around as they see fit without any borders, cross border duties or restrictions. Money we don't have can be given away to people for "good causes" without alot of checking.
But the people cannot vote except in the state where they were borne

Charles Lutwidge Dodgson had a name for that .......

"Tut, tut, child - everything's got a moral, if only you can find it."

Re: Voting Rights
 

Hello Domino,
No, I haven't rushed out for that shredder yet but you've given me a lot of food for thought and I've generally chosen the quality route in the past e.g. German design for white goods and cars! I'm also enjoying the EU country/vote interchange of views.

Re: Voting Rights
 

any input into that Rod ??
I believe it has a bearing on your original posting

Re: Voting Rights
 

Hello Domino,
The supra-national concept of the EU is based on the free movement of goods, services and citizens of member states within its borders and longer term might end up as the United States of Europe (USE) able to tax its European citizens and support its poorer members etc. I guess we would then be citizens of the USE and able to vote for the federal government. As it is there is a bilateral tax agreement between France where I am considered resident and the UK, and both tax authorities have agreed with my application to only complete a French income tax form. Therefore, I basically pay all my taxes to France but can only vote in their local and European elections and have no vote in the UK after 15 years out of the country. In theory then as I have no vote in the UK and as I pay all my taxes to the French government in common with French nationals, I should also have their same voting rights without having to apply for French nationality. I have a Scots friend in Paris who is married to a French woman and has French/English speaking children living in France who has chosen the latter route and has dual nationality but I don't have the same emotional ties. Again in theory I could have gone for Belgian or South African nationality during previous assignments (if they would have accepted me!!) but expatriate postings generally have more favourable tax arrangements if you remain a foreign national and anyway you are never sure of how long you are staying. It's a quirk of history of which you are probably aware that French expatriates retain the right to vote in France, by the way. As it was explained to us by a French MP representing French expats, it was a gift from General de Gaulle in appreciation of their response to his rallying call for the support of the Free French after the fall of France in 1940.

Re: Voting Rights
 

One interesting comment to our voting rights website www.votes-for-expat-brits.com has indicated that , if I should choose to apply for French citizenship in order to have full voting rights in France where I am currently resident, it would cost me around Euro 800. The commentator in question in a similar situation to myself had already decided that as a British expatriate he'd prefer to have the right to vote in the UK.

Re: Voting Rights
 

A further suggestion to our website www.votes-for-expat-brits.com was why don't we try instead the e-petition route on http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk which service was launched on August 4th and promptly crashed under the weight of e-petitions submitted! Thousands of these petitions have since been received and which the government is currently sifting through. Leading the field with over 100,000 signatures (the magic hurdle for triggering a parliamentary debate) is that anyone convicted as a result of the recent riots should lose all their state benefits!

Re: Voting Rights
 

We've now received positive responses to our petition on voting rights from British expatriates in 36 countries, 78% from within the European Union and 22% from outside.

Re: Voting Rights
 

For those interested, there's an article in today's Telegraph newspaper on why British expats should be able to keep their votes. To access click on: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/expat/exp...eir-votes.html

Re: Voting Rights
 

Brian Cave of Pensioners Debout! Stand Up! in France is also running a complementary campaign for the rights of British expatriate pensioners everywhere.

Re: Voting Rights
 

Hi Rod
Apologies for not coming back to you for a while, remember writing a response and sure I posted but not been able to find it. So it’s all my fault (again).
Anything I put into this one will be nothing like the erudite comments originally running round the brain.

After all the hard work that has gone into every man and woman gaining the right to vote it is now seen as a major part of life, although not used very often. To be disenfranchised because of not filling the form in, or moving, or the form got lost in the post is bad enough, you can always double check and vote next time. But to be totally disenfranchised due to some bureaucratic quirk is not something easy to overcome.

That people should lose the right to vote seems wrong but there are potential extenuating circumstances for that. After 15 years (or more) living out of the country, if the individual has no physical ties to a town why would they want to vote in a local or general election? They have no idea of the local needs and would only be voting because they can – if you see what I mean.

I would feel happier, as I believe I have previously posted, for people to be able to vote at all levels in their country of residence. Perhaps after a qualifying period, but the right to vote should be something we all carry with us no matter where we go

Kind regards
Dom

Re: Voting Rights
 

Hello Domino,
It's nice to hear from you again. Whenever I visit britishexpats.com I always look around to see what you are up to with your latest contributions on some issue in a thread and am impressed by how active and constructive you are.
On expat voting rights as you say, the hard won right to vote should not be so easily lost after 15 years when the British expat is then seriously resident and paying taxes in another member state of the EU or indeed democratic state elsewhere. I agree then that this right to vote at all levels (local, national, European) should be transferable after due time to the country of residence where one is closer to and more informed on, the political scene.
However, in monitoring the comments received on our votes-for-expat-brits website, I note a significant number from British expat pensioners from outside the EU bemoaning the fact that their British state pensions are not indexed and presumably then having some British issue on which they would like the opportunity to have their say via the ballot box. Those British expats who still find themselves taxed by the British government also have a similar grievance in adding their voice and vote to our developing petition on voting rights.
Kind regards,
Rod

Re: Voting Rights
 

There is a campaign update on the article "Expat Brits banned from voting" in the on-line Algarve Daily News.