Re: Voting Rights
 

Further to an earlier comment on why not use the e-petition route on the HMGovernment website to campaign for expat voting rights, one such e-petition "Remove the 15 year ban on British Citizens abroad voting" has already been posted!

Re: Voting Rights
 

We've now also set up a Twitter account Voting_Rights to follow.

Re: Voting Rights
 

Sorry Rod, don't use the Twitter thingy wotsit.

how are things, do you feel this is gaining any momentum or are the politicians seeing as a nuisance like a fly in the room ?

I really despair at times that they refuse to look at things and see what is happening in other jurisdictions, some close by, and learn from their experiences.
The same applies to the ridiculous situation with pensions, where people have frozen pensions, are no drain on the country for anything except that pension. In the meantime there are others who have been milking the system for decades without any complaint.

perhaps all this is down to the civil servants who really run the country.?
after all, China ceded HongKong in perpetuity, but they still managed to give it back. I have read that when they heard in London of the Treaty of Nanjing they wanted to know "who would want that damned rock?"

rgds

Re: Voting Rights
 

Hello Domino,
I'm not sure the Twitter thing is going to fly as the people of a more mature age who might be concerned by their lost voting rights are not very present on this medium me thinks.
It's a bit of a struggle as you imagine in trying to get this voting rights ;)thing to take off, not least because as you suggest a lot of people are turned off politicians and politics it seems!
Best regards,
Rod

Re: Voting Rights
 

I think they are all old enough to understand that unless it hits them in their pockets they won't do much, talk to them and they give platitudes not answers or actions.
And they say the "grey vote" means something
Just wait until they get grey
:thumbdown:

Re: Voting Rights
 

Hello Domino,
Talking about the grey vote , it seems as if some of the expats responding to our on-line voting rights poll see the possibility of being able to vote as perhaps another way of exerting pressure come election time on the issue of their frozen pensions (I don't have a frozen UK state) or they are what I would more term political activists. In between you have those who need more confidence in and/or respect for, politicians e.g. following the recent and continuing (another ex-MP facing jail over fraudulent expense claims) parliamentary expenses scandal.:(
Your constructive feedback helps to keep my interest up!:)
Kind regards,
Rod

Re: Voting Rights
 

Well Rod, I just don't see that people know or understand their potential for loss of pension rights - after all it isnt included in FCO (or other Government Dept) information websites or documents that I have seen or noticed.
They do however make a small effort now to mention that living in certain countries may effect your pension rights.

There have always been people, outside the professional civil service, who have moved to other countries to live and work. Their reasons are many and varied, from pure wander lust to love to running from the law to being approached to spreading Gods work.
Looking at history there are a few notable examples one of which is recorded in The King and I. Then there are those such as Farquharson, Grice, Gwyn, Bruce and Colson hired by Peter the Great to set up schools of mathematics and navigation in the 1700's.
Samuel Greig, a Scotsman who became Admiral and Commander in Chief of Her Imperial Majesties Fleets in the Baltic
John Elphinston, a captain in the British Royal Navy, accepted a commission as rear-admiral in the Russian Navy.
But then that period was all before the commoner got the vote.

Looking at it from the outside in, it would appear the UK has been over eager to give incomers the right to vote at all levels. Is this in desperation or just to cover for those who have left the nest?
However, I have seen in recent years the postal vote exercised by incomers cause problems and lead to one or two candidates being successfully prosecuted for voting fraud.

You mentioned earlier about the armed forces and the need to remain on the fence. Well in my experience that was never the case, we all had our political leanings but it never got in the way. Very few actually registered for postal voting, believing quite rightly IMHO, that it would make no difference.
After all, how many, if any elections at any level, have been swung by the vote of the serviceman in the field?? Perhaps another group disenfranchised by apathy in this instance!

kr
Dom

Re: Voting Rights
 

Hello Domino,
Your last point on the armed forces' vote not making much difference got me thinking. Those servicemen in the field and of our parents' generation at the end of the second world war, certainly seemed to want to come home to make a difference in voting to throw out the victorious Churchill (the old establishment) and bring in the new, with Clement Atlee (who's always seemed like an old Tory type to me by the way!:D) at the head of a Labour government! This was one of those unique moments in history of course when the sheer number of people mobilised and thrown together in a war could make a social difference and through their vote brought in the NHS and the welfare state.
Thanks for your feedback.
Rod

Re: Voting Rights
 

Hi Rod
yes, the 2 WW's caused major upheavels for all, and we get details of the fighting and how people pulled together for the good of the nation.
what we don't get is the aftermath, when thousands of men came home from the war to no jobs, all taken by those who hadn't been out of the country.
I remember when packing up my dad's things for the last time I found his war medals, still in the box as received, never been hung, the ribbons pristine and unused. I still have them here. But this reminded me of how disparaging he had been about certain things from post war events, how difficult it was and so on. And that those medals were all he ever got for his time in the war and Burma in particular. Perhaps in some ways he regretted not carrying on, as he was offered the chance to stay with the regiment which was going on to Malaya to fight the insurgents there. But I know he wanted to get home, after 3-4 years away with only letters and nothing else.

I wonder how many returning soldiers actually voted in the election of 5 July 1945. VE day was 8 May 1945 and VJ day was 15 Aug 1945. The votes polled in 1945 was approx 24million whilst in 1950 approx 28million. This would indicate there were a large number of people not able to make a vote in 1945, because they were elsewhere. Easy with hindsight to say that the 1945 election was called with undue haste, espcially as many people were out of the country. However, the subsequent election in 1950 brought about a similar result, irrespective of Atlee appearing to be a Tory in disguise.
I would have to be dig out all my dads papers to see where he was at that time.

May I be so bold to say that the service "vote" is truly a "lost" vote, rarely IME used, especially as a serviceman may be living in married quarters in, say, Portsmouth, but have all his roots in, say, Liverpool. No interest in one but unable to vote in the other.

so really the problem has not been resolved, many are disenfranchised by job and by location. But no party seems able (or willing) to address the situation - probably because of the negligable difference it would make to the result.

rgds
Dom

Re: Voting Rights
 

Hello Domino,
Thanks for your heartfelt input on the wartime experience of your father and his subsequent disillusionment (such as no jobs) after having been away a long time fighting for our country. The soldiers from my home city of Cambridge were shipped out to prop up the then failing efforts against the Japanese and arrived at the fall of Singapore to go straight into the prision camps (as I was told as a boy anyway and have in my head as a folk memory I suppose). I have childhood memories of a few and very sick looking returned POWs from the Far East. Your dad then was in the subsequent successful fight back in Burma.
So Domino, taken together with your firsthand experience as a serviceman and having had no such experience myself, I have no problem in accepting your views on the worthwhileness of the serviceman's vote.:)

Re: Voting Rights
 

ISTR there were troops who arrived in Singapore and had hardly arrived before Lt Gen Percival surrendered. The actual fighting only lasted a week, although there had been fighting as the Japanese came down Malay, it was more or less a forced march.
the problem was the speed at which it all happened, it was too fast for people in control back in London to believe let alone understand and respond. What with having Pearl Harbour on Dec 7th, the Prince of Wales and Repulse sunk on Dec 10th, Singapore fell on 15th Feb with the view of saving more lives, which didnt happen, but also the situation was made dire because all the guns were pointing out to sea and the invasion came from the "back" via Johore.
I was out there in the mid-60's as a teenager and remember the still bad feelings about the Japanese and that time. We had a large swimming pool at Kranji Wireless that was derelict - I was told because British forces were marched in there and shot.

Enough of this, nowt to do with voting today, I hope this will put a few more people to thinking about their Voting Rights, how some people have given their lives for that right and will want to use it more. Perhaps once they lose it they will suddenly realise. But then it will be too late

rgds
Dom

Re: Voting Rights
 

My father, ex Navy, hated the Germans all his life. I guess you cant blame him, as they spent years trying to kill him whilst he was protecting the merchant ship convoys in the North Sea. I'm guessing my father felt little different to many people who served in the war. It took him over 50 years to be recognised in the form of a medal from the Russians. He left it in the box and gave it to me.

Re: Voting Rights
 

My father was the same about the Japanese.
It was very difficult when he bought a new television or radio with a well known English name on the front, but on the label at the back it said Made In Japan.

Back in those days that was their way of taking on markets where there was hate and antipathy, now it is all lost in the mists of time and makes such as Sanyo, Sony, Onkyo etc are now falling off the shelves

Funnily enough his feelings didnt stretch to his great love of photography where he was introduced to Fuji when they first started selling in the UK and went on to use it for decades until he died. I have bought Fuji 35mm film in Uk taken photos and had them developed in Singapore and perfect. Also film from Singapore to Uk also perfect. Neither of us could get on with Agfa.

A good reason for ensuring you keep your vote methinks.

Re: Voting Rights
 

Thanks Domino & Mitzyboy,
On the influence of our parents' experiences during the Second World War, I must admit that I have still tended to select higher priced German white goods such as washing machines, dishwashers and fridges together with their cars for reasons of quality and I've also purchased one Japanese car in the past and have (I think?) no problem buying e.g. Sony consumer products.
In contrast my elder brother still makes his silent protest in never buying Japanese cars for example. The fanatical (to Western minds) Japanese military code at the time as I understand it (and Domino knows I don't mind being corrected!) and how the ordinary Japanese soldier was indoctrinated, did not permit any honour in surrender in them or their foes. Similarly their neglect in not building supply lines to support their rapid advances, assuming that they could live off the land with no "dishonoured" prisoners to also feed, ultimately proved fatal for both. It's an explanation of their behaviour I suppose but not a justification and, now that I have written this down, I admit it still rankles a bit that they (unlike the Germans) have never really be forced to face up to the atrocities they committed in the Far East.
I like Domino's conclusion that the hard-won right to vote is something of value and not to be lightly taken away by politicians just because we expats move around.

Re: Voting Rights
 

Rod, I think our parents would be aghast !! Buying German goods :eek:
I remember the complaint being made, (but its in the mists of time so don't aske me to remember where) that in the 50's the British were still turning out gear using the same old lathes etc that were clapped out at the start of the war, whilst Germany had been completely re-tooled and automated using Marshall Plan money - not a penny went to Britain.
The only true benefit of winning a war is the right to write the history.
So whilst we were reading those comic books of fighting German and Japanese soldiers our former enemies were getting on with rebuilding the world to their advantage.....

Rod, didnt the Japanese, possibly inadvertantly (?), use the military tactics of the ancients - living off the land, taking from the locals, killing the locals who got in the way. After all, for example - the Roman Legionnaire wasnt just a killing machine, he was a carpenter, stonemason, labourer, or just a piece of muscle to get the job done. The Japanese employed the same principles of living off the land, remember that they also suffered deprivation when food was scarce. IMO they didnt have the wherewithall to have a supply line, having landed far enough away from Singapore not to have entered into a potentially ruinous fight, but were able to sink Prince of Wales and Repulse to ensure their landing safely. They had the advantage of being able to live off the food that was\is common to both Japan and Malysia - rice. Unlike the Brits who still had to have a British Breakfast before going off to war. But they also had a strict code of conduct, and I believe the worst were those who were peasants who became NCO's and officers, rather than the common soldier and the true military officers. Even today they have similar codes - make a mistake and cut off the first joint of a digit is still common.

But this is in part the reason why so many men and women gave their lives, to ensure a free future for their families and descendents, with the right to vote. That right must be inviolate, along with free speech, not lost because of the right of the individual to live where he desires. It should not be taken away because of an administrative decision by a civil servant, rubber stamped by a politician who only wishes to get on with something else and doesnt see the ramifications of what he is doing

rgds

Re: Voting Rights
 

Women in Saudi Arabia to vote and run in elections
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-15052030

Good news, but will they lose that right to vote if they live outside the country for 15 years ??

Re: Voting Rights
 

Good point, Domino! :D
The Saudi establishment must be feeling the chilly breeze of an approaching "Arab spring" but it's a pretty small bone to toss to the Saudi women who seem to be restricted in just about everything else compared with men.

I'll combine this with some input below for you on the UK service vote!

Quote: In a written statement to the House of Commons this week, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence Andrew Robathan reported on the latest survey of electoral registration levels amongst members of the armed forces:
It indicates that 75% of service personnel are registered to vote, up from 69% in 2009 and 60% in 2005. This represents the highest level of service registration since I first raised the issue back in 2005. Of those registered in 2010, the majority (77%) chose to register as ordinary rather than service voters. The level of voters registered as overseas voters has remained at 1%.Unquote

I guess there is a big difference between registering and actually voting but at least we can assume these are valid registrations.
regards,
Rod

Re: Voting Rights
 

Hello Domino,
Further to your concluding paragraph above and with which I agree , Ronald Searle the cartoonist (and actually a former pupil of the grammar school I attended in Cambridge) in an article on his 91st birthday in last Sunday's Times, seemed quite philosophical in recalling his experiences of the fall of Singapore, imprisonment in Changi and as a forced labourer building the Burma - Thailand railway (those Japanese supply lines?). He put down their treatment to a clash of completely different cultures.
Continuing with this service theme then and its association with hard-won voting rights, there is also Harry Shindler a WWII veteran of the Italian campaign still fighting for his voting rights at 89!
They come from a tough breed.

Re: Voting Rights
 

Hi Rod
as to the Japanese supply lines, they always come later. The Japanese army lived off the land until they had subjugated the area and then turned their prisoners to work providing the infrastructure they needed. This was something that wasnt understood when on day one they were at A and 5 days later were knocking at the (back) door of Singapore. Totally unexpected, at least not the way the British Army would do things. They had to move fast to prevent the destruction of the oil products in Singapore to refuel their ships that would bring supplies, one of the main reasons for the plan of action when they first started their war, having been themselves subject to an element of torched earth in China earlier. The railway was to move supplies to support the attack on India, but they had to fight hard the Chindits who refused to give in on anything. I believe a number of Japanese commanders were complimentary about this after the event.
They seemed to find the troops the best form of labour, I havent read much about them using Malays and Thai's in the same way but more than happy to be corrected on that.

The reasonable way Harry Shindler puts it sounds quite reasonable, as we have already agreed it is now a basic human right to vote. Yes, Ok, 15 years is a reasonable time and if someone retires at 65 to live in another country then they wll be 80 and as believed by civil service bean counters at or approaching death's door, so not interested in voting except for an easy exit.
But - we allow people from other countries to move here and give them a vote in elections without a qualifying period. They also stand for election in local and national elections. (subject to certain limitations) Is that right ?

Re: Voting Rights
 

Hello Domino,
I put your last point to a good friend of mine - Scottish, expat, miner's son and now retired in the south of France. He's UK politically aware, as an example he once stood as a Labour candidate for a constituency seat but was unfortunately not selected by the local party. Anyway I paraphrased you to ask him what he thought about new arrivals in the UK from a different culture having more voting rights than us after 15 years out of the country, although we still share the same culture of the majority in the UK.
Perhaps it was a flippant remark after a glass of wine or two but he said that's alright because they are there and we are here! :D
It's just a small indication that this issue of expatriate voting rights benefits from debate as I like to think we try to do in this thread. I read the other day that as only 13,000 expats out of the estimated 6.5 million outside the UK are registered to vote, this is a good indication of the actual level of interest. However, given the modern communications tools available particularly via the internet, you'd think the UK Electoral Commission (or powers that be) could do a better job of stimulating interest in, and making it easier to register for, those with less than 15 years out of the country and still able to vote, rather than just pushing out a bland notice to register each general election time.
Rod

Re: Voting Rights
 

Here's an interesting assertion by Harriet Harmon at last week's annual Labour party conference!
Government plans to clean up the electoral register would require each individual to sign up, ending the system where one person can register their household.
Ms Harman says research by the independent Electoral Commission found most of those who will become ineligible to vote are likely to have been Labour voters and the people who are bumped off the list are likely to be "predominantly poor, young or black, and more liable to vote Labour," she will tell delegates.
Why such people would become ineligible to vote is not made clear but presumably the government's plans are aimed at trying to cut down on fraudulent voting.
It's interesting that as a British expat with no right to vote in the UK after 15 years abroad , I at least have a valid passport from HMG which, in the absence of ID cards in the UK, should otherwise be sufficient to identify me as a valid voter!

Re: Voting Rights
 

Well Rod, your friend has a sense of rightness in all this, they are there and we are here (wherever here may be). How many of them may be able to have a vote "back home" as well as in the UK?
So how did they get the right to vote and stand for election but the likes of you and him (and me shortly) are in a position of losing our right to vote.
I think the loss of a right to vote in the UK could be deemed acceptable if it was balanced out by a right to vote in our new country. But even that is denied to us, except for Eu and local municipal elections.

As I have said earlier, the Right to Vote should be inherent in the person, perhaps proved by passport or ID card. If they are recorded on the residence register for the municipality concerned then they should have that vote (I don't know about "foreigners" from any country having to register with the local town hall their presence in the Uk).
rgds

Re: Voting Rights
 

Hi Rod,
you have been busy finding that. Funny that Ms Harman can work out how many votes may be lost to other parties. Funny that the population will look even more skew-wiff when compared with the electoral roll.

I believe this proposal is right and correct. Here we have 8 or 10 people living in 2 up 2 down properties according to the electoral roll. As with the census it is currently the responsibility of the head of household to fill in the ER form.
We have had more than one ER fraud case here, one was based on the incorrect use of the postal vote. This also requires no proof of identity, just a form sent in the post. Certain forms were filled in on the doorstep and signed illegibly or signed by the head of household. In some instances individual's votes were sent to a particular party because the head of household said that was how it was to be. This only came to the fore when some people didnt even know they had a postal and went to vote.

Yes, lets get everyone to register their individual right to vote, we seem to have dodgy population figures in some areas, relying on UKBA to ensure all not entitled to be here to be picked up.
And the presence of name on the ER gives a person a solidity, a presence, when there may well only be a ghost.

So, Rod, bring it on, lets get rid of all those who are not entitled to vote who are weeded out. It will also reduce the chances for those silly stories about a 6month old being given the vote - because her father filled in the form incorrectly
rgds

Re: Voting Rights
 

Hello Domino,
I've just come back from a conference in London where various politicians were making soothing noises about agreeing something needs to/will be done about expat voting rights, about it being a basic human right and that it should not be tied to being a UK taxpayer etc. However, they add there needs to be a general consensus between the main political parties and to counter the impression e.g. that expats are fat cats and don't contribute much to UK Plc once they've left the country! On this latter point I've had an input from an ex-serviceman who believes that the government is breaking the "military covenant" they talk about when we have soldiers dying in the field, in arbitrarily depriving ex-service people of their right to vote just because they have lived abroad for over 15 years. Other expats who have lost their vote are complaining because they are still paying UK taxes.
We were encouraged to get more expats to register to vote there being an estimated 5.5 million of them of which some 50 % should still be able to vote but at the last count (Dec 2010) only 30,809 are on the electoral roll.
There are various reasons quoted for this, one of which could be general apathy or lack of interest in the old country. However, there seems general agreement that the registration and voting procedures are archaic, too bureaucratic and time consuming given the modern commuications tools available today, that expats unless political activists, are put off making the effort, having better things to do with their time. There is also apparently a concern that registering as an expatriate voter could attract the unwelcome attentions of HMRC!
Kind regards,
Rod

Re: Voting Rights
 

Well Rod, at least you are getting soothing noises, but regret I don't think anything will come of it. It needs a big hitter to keep the pot boiling, someone like Frank Field, who has over many years been able to keep on raising certain injustices, raising their profile year after year.

If the civil servants who monitor the 15yrs were more active in communicating during that period it surely would get more to think about it. Yes, after 14yrs away from your last UK residence which may have only been a dormitory, where you had no interest in politics or voting before leaving the country, it is asking a lot to take any interest. But that is why I have said earlier that the individual should be able to transfer that vote along with their passport for identity to enable a vote in the new residence. I have seen many people take more interest when they retire - more time available when not working. Most local councillors are retired or owners of businesses where they can get the time off for such activities.

Yes the systems used in voting registration et al are achaic. They don't seem to have changed for centuries when not every man had a vote, letalone women as well. However, except for extenuating circumstances (living or holidaying abroad) where the postal vote can be exercised, all votes should be by the individual attending a polling station. This has been known to reduce fraud (twice in my local town in recent years).

The Military Covenant is something not bandied around much during my time, but more relevent today. It is surprising how quickly that 15yrs can slip by. But it cannot be used for a minority, it has to be for all not just recent ex-service personnel.

I seem to remember saying to you about the number of people who disenfranchised themselves from the electoral system during the Poll Tax. Expats are taking the same attitude. There are expats who have fully cut themselves off other than their pension cheque each month. There are others who maintain a property in the UK as a place of refuge, some of which are rented out and taxation is being deducted before the rent is passed on. Then there are those who have dropped off the radar, keep properties in more than one country, work in one or other or both without paying any taxes at all. But then every country has people who work exclusively in the Black Economy. These will never want their names to come up on anyone's screen - especially HMRC, so registering a vote will be the last of their Things To Do.
Al Capone was put into prison for taxation reasons because he was working in the Black Economy, but I don't think he was caught through registering to vote. But it could open up a huge can of worms if the so called Chinese Wall around the Electoral Roll team should be breached
rgds
Dom

Re: Voting Rights
 

Hello Domino,
I've just been looking at the US voting experience with their expat and overseas military personnel who I believe keep their right to vote where ever they are. A US report reveals that despite the availability of new technology, there was a notably low turnout of US overseas voters (76K) and military voters (118K) in 2010, all states combined. Our total 30K expat voters registered (and presumably mostly voting) doesn't look too bad then I suppose in comparison given the much larger US population (unless the relative expat populations are not in the same proportion). Perhaps their expats also like to keep a low profile wrt Uncle Sam! A major cause suggested is the discouragement of voters by difficulties introduced with US voting laws which result in less than two-thirds of eligible US citizens voting in presidential elections and less than 50% in mid-term elections.
The message for all democratic governments here is to make it as easy as possible for all eligible citizens to vote. As you suggest, as an expat if you have a passport to identify you, it's probably then easiest to be able to vote where you reside.
Kind regards,
Rod

Re: Voting Rights
 

Hi Rod.
well I waited a few days to see if someone else would want to chime in on this but its still down to us two.

Glad to see the mighty US has the same or worse (percentage wise) as the UK with regard to offshore voting. Presumably the rest of the world has the same problem, including Australia where they have mandatory voting.

Yes, that idea of being allowed to register where you hang your hat could be a useful way of assisting peoples to integrate, on one side knowing that they are not disenfranchised whilst being taxed and on the other knowing that they newcomer will take an active interest in the well being of where they have dropped anchor.

I will be dropping anchor in Spain by Christmas so presumably will have to add the local electoral roll office on my list of things to do. But I know I don't have a councillor up for re-election in the locals next year.

Perhaps we will have to get a campaign running here in Spain, as there are supposed to be more expats here than anywhere else. But as the stories tell us some of them are unofficially here and wouldnt want anyone to know where they are, they are unlikely to register for a postal vote.

keep up the good work Rod
kind regards
Dom

Re: Voting Rights
 

Hello Domino,
Your invaluable assistance and feedback has been much appreciated in helping keep this Voting Rights thread going over the past few months . If only there were more like you to also have chipped in from time to time! I know you weren't too impressed when I mentioned going on to Twitter to spread the word further but I have the further news that I've also similarly launched a Facebook page upon the request of the campaigners against frozen pensions whose cause is now overlapping with having voting rights in terms of joint promotion. The next milestone is early November with the hearing in the high court in London of the case of James Preston, the expat Brit now living in Spain but having lost his vote after 15 years out of the UK.
Hopefully I'll be returning to this thread from time to time and , who knows, with that large base of expat Brits in Spain maybe we'll achieve something in the future..
Again, many thanks for your past contribution to keeping this thread running.
Kind regards,
Rod

Re: Voting Rights
 

Been meaning to ask on this thread what expat registration really is for UK and how you go about. Now that we are resident in Spain we have got our Padron and signed on the list of voters so last May we were able to vote in the Municipal Elections. I like to think we made a difference since the local Mayor who had inherited his seat from the previous incumbent who went before he was pushed (you know what I mean) now has no majority and only rules by the casting vote of the one communist member. Is'nt local politics wonderful!

We are still on the electoral roll in UK but that must be revised soon so we will have to find how to register as expats. I pay a lot of UK tax and I am a UK pensioner so all my financial affairs are at the whim of the UK Government as it says below... So I need to have my vote.

It is one thing to say we should all register for at least 15 years but how and where do you do it

Re: Voting Rights
 

Hello John & Kath,
Thanks for your input to this thread.
According to the Electoral Commission you should go to www.aboutmyvote.co.uk to download a form and register.
Rod

Re: Voting Rights
 

This is just a note to say that yesterday 28th October was the deadline set for the British government's response to the European Court of Human Rights, before they consider their verdict on the case brought by WWII veteran Harry Shindler a long term resident in Italy. Harry is contesting the government's position that he has severed his links with the UK after more than 15 years away and has consequently lost his right to vote.
More on Harry Shindler's campaign can be found on our website www.votes-for-expat-brits.com.
Rod

Re: Voting Rights
 

The response below from the Constitution Group in the Cabinet Office, seems to place voteless British Citizens overseas but still paying UK tax, in the same category as some foreign nationals living and paying tax in the UK and who are also not eligible to vote!

Thank you for your response to the Government’s consultation on Individual Electoral Registration. We have now closed the consultation and are currently reviewing all the responses that we have received. In your response to the white paper you have raised issues regarding the voting rights of British Citizens overseas. In light of your comments, it may be helpful if I set out the background to this issue.

As you may know, the Representation of the People Act 1985 provided for the first time for UK citizens living overseas to be able to register to vote in general and European Parliamentary elections in the UK. The voting rights of overseas electors did not continue indefinitely under the Representation of the People Act 1985, but for five years from the
time when the UK citizen was last resident and on the electoral register in the UK. Parliament decided to impose a time limit on the eligibility of overseas electors to vote because it was thought that generally over time their connection with the UK is likely to diminish. The length of the time limit has subsequently been changed over the years, first increasing to 20 years, then being reduced to 15 years since 1 April 2002.

The UK voting franchise is not based exclusively on being a UK tax payer, so it does not necessarily follow that, because someone pays taxes in the UK, he or she has the right to vote in the UK. Some foreign nationals living and paying tax in the UK are not eligible to vote.

However, I can confirm that the Government is considering whether the 15 year time limit remains appropriate. If a change is proposed Parliament will need to consider the
issue.

We will publish a formal response to the consultation in due course.

Regards,

The Electoral Registration Transformation Programme

Constitution Group, the Cabinet Office

4S2 | HM Treasury | 1 Horse
Guards Rd | Westminster | London | SW1A 2HQ

Rod

Re: Voting Rights
 

The difficulties of dealing with a rather out-dated way of registering and then voting has been one objection raised by expats, given the more modern communications available in the internet age.
In the US, proponents argue that Internet voting would offer greater speed and convenience, particularly for overseas and military voters and, in fact, any voters allowed to vote that way.
However, computer and network security experts are virtually unanimous in pointing out that online voting is an exceedingly dangerous threat to the integrity of U.S. elections!
Whether you are interested in voting on-line or not, it's worth reading here about the security threats if you e.g. shop or bank on-line.
However, if we accept this degree of risk in continuing with our e-commerce transactions presumably we'd also be prepared to vote on-line?
Rod

Re: Voting Rights
 

Well Rod, no change there then, as I hadnt expected any change there was nothing lost. I don't see that they have given any real reasons for rejections, but isnt that the way of the British Civil Service. Lets just tinker around with it every decade or so.

The only problem with the Fully Transferrable Vote is that would have to be passed by so many differing regimes, some so paranoid that only one white face is seen as a military take over. But I think it may be possible to get it through the EU regime, as being part of Article 8 of Human Rights.
This is something that may come but will not be in our lifetimes

Please keep up the flow of information
kind regards
Dom

Re: Voting Rights
 

Hello Domino,
Nice to hear from you again on the reply from the Constitutional Group in the Cabinet Office, although with your security experience I fully expected my posting on the threats from hackers of a less secure but more convenient on-line voting system to have caught your attention!
Kind regards,
Rod

Re: Voting Rights
 

Well Rod, i was considering leaving this for another day to give all our readers an opportunity to assimilate the previous posting.

The electoral systems employed across the world seem to be based on black art and alchemy. What with putting an X next to the name after having had your name ticked off a list. Then there is the thumprint (who actually checks the right to vote?) but at least there is a heavily stained finger meaning you can't vote twice.
And then there is the much discredited punching a hole in a piece of paper, leaving chads all over the place, like the aftermath of a wedding reception.

For some reason The Vote is one thing UK councils don't want to meddle with, although they want us to pay our rates by electronic means, governments pay benefits and pensions electronically as money transfer.
We buy goods electronically on a daily basis, more do than will admit it IMHO.
We buy train and bus and plane tickets, we book a parking place at the airport - all electronically. We even buy anniversary and birthday cards over the internet for delivery to loved ones.
So if we can go to open sites such as newspapers or to market research organisations such as YouGov, Twitter, Facebook etc Why can't we be allowed to vote online?

Online security can be a problem, but following good practice and solid security systems only leaves the electronic poking around which is relatively easy to pick up and action - providing there is the desire and inclination to do so.
The banning of plug in's in secure areas is common, as is the use of small lockable cabinets to hold mobile phones is now quite common inside computer rooms. The use of on-site paper shredding of confidential waste ensures there is little room for the common human failure. (I used to have a contractor in to shred 2tonnes once a month). Because the most publicised form of data breach is human failure, i.e. laptop on the tube\back of taxi etc, plug in's left lying around, things sent by unsecure, unsigned for, processes, the use of scamming readers etc then reduction of the human from the process would surely be an advantage.
Yes there are other electronic breaches which receive less publicity because the company\bank invokes confidentiality.

But all this is an excuse for changing the systems employed, perhaps led by the company(s) making the hole punch for the US system, they don't want to change - but we had to have our passports changed to useless chipped versions without our being able to complain.

So stop the prevarication, change the postal vote, which is in the UK at least much maligned and proved to be more liable to fraud than most other methods, and give the voter an electronic vote.

rgds
Dom

Re: Voting Rights
 

Hello Domino,
You suggested getting rid of the postal vote in your last posting.

The Select Committee on Political and Constitutional Reform has reported on the 4th November 2011 , on the subject of Individual Electoral Registration ( the latter in fact which already applies to expatriate voting) within the UK.
It is significant, therefore, that there are two references to overseas voters in the report.
The first mentions the inadequacy of the postal vote.
The second on pp. 99 states: The Committee also received written evidence from a number of expatriates calling for the Government to abolish the current 15 year limit on voting in General Elections when living overseas. Mark Harper responded that it was “something that Government is considering at the moment, but we have not reached a decision”.

At least we seem to have achieved a certain formal recognition and possibly pushed open the door a little more?
Kind regards,
Rod

Re: Voting Rights
 

Hi Rod

My suggestion that the postal vote be abolished is because of the misuse and fraud that has been increasing year on year, regrettably predominately by certain sections of the community.
However, there would still be people who would become disenfranchised by such an abolition i.e. disabled, pensioners etc, in the same way as closing post offices in small villages. Unless the money could be found to ensure that all entitle to vote are able to do so, but that would be very very expensive.

That the report is including representation by ex-pats with regard to their loss of voting rights means it should be possible to keep it in the mind and be regularly mentioned as part of the review process.

As I said before, it is a shame this is essentially a 2 man thread, but the stats say there are close on 2,500 hits by people reading the thread so it is being read

keep up the good work, remember that there are local elections in the UK next year and that a number of people will not be able to vote.
regards
Dom

Re: Voting Rights
 

To continue this discussion, what's the general feeling about the practical case of expat Brit James Preston below?

James Preston’s expat voting rights case against the British government was heard in the High Court in London two days ago on the 8th November (final judgement awaited). According to an article in the expat Telegraph which first covered his case in 2010 (before the last general election):

“James Preston is a brave man. Rather like David goading Goliath, he has decided to take on the full might of the British government by applying for a judicial review of the expatriate voting rights law. The curious thing about James Preston, a married fund manager from Leicestershire working for a property investment firm based in Madrid, is that he’s never voted in his life. He told me: “I know this might sound odd, but until I got married and had children, I really never felt the need to vote. It was my strong feelings about the Iraq war that persuaded me to think about voting in the forthcoming UK elections but now that I’ve reached the 15 year watershed of living in Spain, I’ve lost the chance. I’m basically being stripped of a fundamental democratic right. The right to vote.”

Due to the wider implications of this case, James Preston’s costs should he lose have been capped by the court at £20,000.

You can read more here:

http://my.telegraph.co.uk/expat/annanicholas/10138095/should-expats-have-the-right-to-vote/

http://www.votes-for-expat-brits.com

Rod

Re: Voting Rights
 

Remembrance Day last Friday brought to mind WWII veteran Harry Shindler's BBC interview about his lost voting rights.