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-   -   Acquired Residency Rights Post Brexit (https://britishexpats.com/forum/europe-55/acquired-residency-rights-post-brexit-898608/)

Ellie95 Jun 27th 2017 9:09 pm

Acquired Residency Rights Post Brexit
 
So I thought this was an insightful read.
https://www.freemovement.org.uk/anal...ens-in-the-eu/.

In effect- May's proposals are to move EU citizens to the Immigration and Asylum Act 1979. ANYONE who has dealt/read through this will know how high the thresholds are to obtain residency/visa documentation from the Home Office.

I have a non-EU spouse and have had some dealings with UKVI; I can be almost certain this is going to be a nightmare.

Which brings me on to British migrants like myself in the EU. If EU nationals in Britain are facing a hostile immigration system in Britain as is already happening now while we are still members of the EU we can be almost certain that other EU member states are going to retaliate and make life difficult for British migrants like myself in the EU.

Now I know these are draft proposals and this is a negotiation, the final position may well be extremely different from where we are today. But as I said, having a spouse who is non-EU national and having dealt with the Home Office to a great degree I highly doubt they will suddenly be more lenient with EU applications post Brexit when they aren't even doing it now.

All those "expats" who voted Brexit... I am curious to know how 'secure' you are all feeling at the moment given the real possibility that you may well lose your residency rights and healthcare rights etc post Brexit.

Which brings me to my final point. We are actually going to abandon ship (we were based in Spain, in Benalmadena and we quite liked it here but this uncertainty is driving our young family bonkers) and move to the UK because the direction of travel at the moment is for us looking gloomy at best.

BritInParis Jun 27th 2017 11:01 pm

Re: Acquired Residency Rights Post Brexit
 
I think you mean to say the Immigration Act 1971 and that is true. The end of freedom of movement will certainly have an effect for those wishing to move to the UK from the EU after April 2019. For those already in the UK as a qualified person then there will be little practical difference. For those wishing to secure their position and acquire full citizenship rights in the UK then they need only make an application for naturalisation.

The same is true of yourself in Spain. If you leave now then you won't be able to take advantage of the grandfathered rights you would have earned by remaining in Spain or take the option of Spanish citizenship when you have fulfilled the residency requirements.

Pulaski Jun 27th 2017 11:50 pm

Re: Acquired Residency Rights Post Brexit
 

Originally Posted by Ellie95 (Post 12281689)
..... we can be almost certain that other EU member states are going to retaliate and make life difficult for British migrants like myself in the EU. ....

You might be "almost certain", but I am certainly not.

It will almost certainly depend on whether the British migrants are paying their way and making a positive economic contribution. For example in Spain there are half a million British pensioners spending their pensions in Spain, and I see it as highly unlikely that the Spanish government will kick them out just to be spiteful. Ditto British engineers in Germany, British chemists in France, etc.

.... All those "expats" who voted Brexit... I am curious to know how 'secure' you are all feeling at the moment ....
Equally secure, and thank you for asking. :)

Ellie95 Jun 28th 2017 8:17 am

Re: Acquired Residency Rights Post Brexit
 

Originally Posted by Pulaski (Post 12281799)
You might be "almost certain", but I am certainly not.

It will almost certainly depend on whether the British migrants are paying their way and making a positive economic contribution. For example in Spain there are half a million British pensioners spending their pensions in Spain, and I see it as highly unlikely that the Spanish government will kick them out just to be spiteful. Ditto British engineers in Germany, British chemists in France, etc.

Equally secure, and thank you for asking. :)

Well, I don't understand why you would think Pensioners- who do not pay taxes- are so valuable to be honest with you. If I am to be frank I think that portrays a certain level of arrogance. If I was the Spanish government I would look at the cost benefit analysis of having OAP- the contributions vs the cost of their upkeep. In my opinion it probably costs the government more particularly when you consider health (an area the Spanish government has long claimed the British reimbursements are not enough) etc vs contributions to the local economy.

In any case, that simply disregards that Spain is a global destination that can attract investment from other wealthy individuals across the globe. So I am not convinced.

As for you feeling secure well glad to hear- only time will tell if that security is based on solid foundations or ill informed.

mikelincs Jun 28th 2017 8:20 am

Re: Acquired Residency Rights Post Brexit
 

Originally Posted by Ellie95 (Post 12281997)

As for you feeling secure well glad to hear- only time will tell if that security is based on solid foundations or ill informed.

Well he would feel secure, he lives in the USA, so nothing happening in the EU will directly affect him. :lol:

Ellie95 Jun 28th 2017 8:25 am

Re: Acquired Residency Rights Post Brexit
 

Originally Posted by BritInParis (Post 12281781)
I think you mean to say the Immigration Act 1971 and that is true. The end of freedom of movement will certainly have an effect for those wishing to move to the UK from the EU after April 2019. For those already in the UK as a qualified person then there will be little practical difference. For those wishing to secure their position and acquire full citizenship rights in the UK then they need only make an application for naturalisation.

The same is true of yourself in Spain. If you leave now then you won't be able to take advantage of the grandfathered rights you would have earned by remaining in Spain or take the option of Spanish citizenship when you have fulfilled the residency requirements.

Thank you for the correction. But this is my concern exactly- according to May's document these "grandfathered rights" will be reviewed again when you apply for this settled status and doesn't mean you automatically get it.

Which is what I am trying to say; if the British government is being "hostile" towards EU migrants, why wouldn't other EU member states respond in kind? I just look at the direction of travel and the incumbent government and it isn't feeling me with confidence. If we leave now with my family then at least in the worst case scenario- we won't be faced with the prospect of being a family of "third country nationals" who all have to apply under national Immigration law and start all over again.

If we move now I will be back home and won't have to deal with all this uncertainty and the real possibility of it all going t!ts up and then panicking to have our ducks in formation.

So overall our minds are set and we believe the risks outweigh the potential pros that might come out of this Brexit situation.

Ellie95 Jun 28th 2017 8:26 am

Re: Acquired Residency Rights Post Brexit
 

Originally Posted by mikelincs (Post 12281999)
Well he would feel secure, he lives in the USA, so nothing happening in the EU will directly affect him. :lol:

Ah I was not aware. It explains it all then :lol:

mikelincs Jun 28th 2017 9:05 am

Re: Acquired Residency Rights Post Brexit
 

Originally Posted by Ellie95 (Post 12282003)
Thank you for the correction. But this is my concern exactly- according to May's document these "grandfathered rights" will be reviewed again when you apply for this settled status and doesn't mean you automatically get it.

Which is what I am trying to say; if the British government is being "hostile" towards EU migrants, why wouldn't other EU member states respond in kind? I just look at the direction of travel and the incumbent government and it isn't feeling me with confidence. If we leave now with my family then at least in the worst case scenario- we won't be faced with the prospect of being a family of "third country nationals" who all have to apply under national Immigration law and start all over again.

If we move now I will be back home and won't have to deal with all this uncertainty and the real possibility of it all going t!ts up and then panicking to have our ducks in formation.

So overall our minds are set and we believe the risks outweigh the potential pros that might come out of this Brexit situation.

Firstly NOTHING has been decided either for people in the UK or UK citizens living in the U, and there does seem to be very open differences between some of May's cabinet as to how to move forward, because of May's weakened position after the election absolutely NOTHING is set in stone and will not be for a while. The EU want to sort out the rights very early on, May wants to delay things, but I suspect she will have to bow down to the forces within her own party who a moving a lot more to a soft Brexit.

Pulaski Jun 28th 2017 12:27 pm

Re: Acquired Residency Rights Post Brexit
 

Originally Posted by Ellie95 (Post 12281997)
Well, I don't understand why you would think Pensioners- who do not pay taxes- are so valuable to be honest with you.

People are valuable to a country for several reasons - not only paying direct income tax, but also sales tax on the goods and services they buy, and on the economic activity they generate - buying food, clothes, and appliances, and eating in restaurants, not to mention use of medical services. All of these things are activities that employ people who pay income taxes, who spend their pay and therefore pay sales tax. .... That is how economics works - one source of income multiplies as the money passes from person to person.

On the other side of the equation, government expenditure, retired people don't have children, so they don't increase the need for schools, or colleges and universities. They don't drive or travel as much, so they don't increase the need for roads and public transport, and when they do travel it isn't usually in the rush hour.

I suspect that in Spain many retired people also act as a magnet for relatives to come and visit, further increasing the "spend" without increasing the need for schools, or public services.

All things considered, in a relatively poor country with plenty of housing, pensioners are a pretty good stimulus for the economy, which is why some countries have visas especially for retired people - because, in short, they bring money but not expenses.

mikelincs Jun 28th 2017 1:33 pm

Re: Acquired Residency Rights Post Brexit
 

Originally Posted by Ellie95 (Post 12281997)
Well, I don't understand why you would think Pensioners- who do not pay taxes- are so valuable to be honest with you..

I have to take you up on that point, some pensions are taxable in the country you live in, the NHS pension for one. I had to declare it and it worked out that I had to pay 2€ in tax, others who might get higher pensions would pay more, The state pension is below the UK threshold and certain government schemes HAVE to be taxed in the UK, BUT pensioners spend their money in the country they live, utilities, food, services etc so ARE contributing to the local economy.

Rosemary Jun 28th 2017 1:38 pm

Re: Acquired Residency Rights Post Brexit
 

Originally Posted by Ellie95 (Post 12281997)
Well, I don't understand why you would think Pensioners- who do not pay taxes- are so valuable to be honest with you..

Totally wrong. I am a pensioner and pay taxes in Spain.

Rosemary

BritInParis Jun 28th 2017 10:21 pm

Re: Acquired Residency Rights Post Brexit
 

Originally Posted by Ellie95 (Post 12282003)
Thank you for the correction. But this is my concern exactly- according to May's document these "grandfathered rights" will be reviewed again when you apply for this settled status and doesn't mean you automatically get it.

Which is what I am trying to say; if the British government is being "hostile" towards EU migrants, why wouldn't other EU member states respond in kind? I just look at the direction of travel and the incumbent government and it isn't feeling me with confidence. If we leave now with my family then at least in the worst case scenario- we won't be faced with the prospect of being a family of "third country nationals" who all have to apply under national Immigration law and start all over again.

If we move now I will be back home and won't have to deal with all this uncertainty and the real possibility of it all going t!ts up and then panicking to have our ducks in formation.

So overall our minds are set and we believe the risks outweigh the potential pros that might come out of this Brexit situation.

The idea that anyone is going to start deporting anyone else's citizens is faintly ludicrous given the numbers involved and Europe's recent track record dealing with migrants from outside the EU. Move back now if you want to but you'll be really jumping the gun and I suspect you'll deeply regret it once the dust settles and you find out you could have easily stayed on after all.

Assanah Jun 29th 2017 8:25 am

Re: Acquired Residency Rights Post Brexit
 

Originally Posted by Ellie95 (Post 12281997)
Well, I don't understand why you would think Pensioners- who do not pay taxes- are so valuable to be honest with you. If I am to be frank I think that portrays a certain level of arrogance. If I was the Spanish government I would look at the cost benefit analysis of having OAP- the contributions vs the cost of their upkeep. In my opinion it probably costs the government more particularly when you consider health (an area the Spanish government has long claimed the British reimbursements are not enough) etc vs contributions to the local economy.

In any case, that simply disregards that Spain is a global destination that can attract investment from other wealthy individuals across the globe. So I am not convinced.

As for you feeling secure well glad to hear- only time will tell if that security is based on solid foundations or ill informed.

Also considering that everybody is spending money. Even the unemployed. We all eat, drink, consume. If that is enough to count for economic contribution everyone should be fine everywhere.

Pulaski Jun 29th 2017 1:02 pm

Re: Acquired Residency Rights Post Brexit
 

Originally Posted by Assanah (Post 12282855)
Also considering that everybody is spending money. Even the unemployed. We all eat, drink, consume. If that is enough to count for economic contribution everyone should be fine everywhere.

With a VAT rate of 21% (in Spain) many people pay more in VAT than they do in income tax.

Assanah Jun 29th 2017 1:32 pm

Re: Acquired Residency Rights Post Brexit
 

Originally Posted by Pulaski (Post 12283051)
With a VAT rate of 21% (in Spain) many people pay more in VAT than they do in income tax.

So? Are you saying that people who are on welfare and spend their money are more valuable than the employed that are raising kids and use kindergarten and schools? Don’t get me wrong, I am absolutely against the talk about how useful people are for the economy. That is why I am for freedom of movement for all - that includes the poor, the sick, and the old.

However, I take issue with the weird attitude that the Europeans in the UK are somehow a burden while the old Brits in Spain are the "motor of the Spanish economy". I can only tell you from an American friend, who is not poor and is not rich either, and who had to abandon plans to retire in Spain because of the requirements. I totally assume that this will be - in future - the case for many British retirees as well unless you argue that Americans are somehow less useful than British retirees are. I think that things will change for the British and I believe it very likely that many British will not be able to retire in Spain. This is the price to pay for sovereignty and for giving up an the freedom of movement.


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