Acquired Residency Rights Post Brexit
 

So I thought this was an insightful read.
https://www.freemovement.org.uk/anal...ens-in-the-eu/.

In effect- May's proposals are to move EU citizens to the Immigration and Asylum Act 1979. ANYONE who has dealt/read through this will know how high the thresholds are to obtain residency/visa documentation from the Home Office.

I have a non-EU spouse and have had some dealings with UKVI; I can be almost certain this is going to be a nightmare.

Which brings me on to British migrants like myself in the EU. If EU nationals in Britain are facing a hostile immigration system in Britain as is already happening now while we are still members of the EU we can be almost certain that other EU member states are going to retaliate and make life difficult for British migrants like myself in the EU.

Now I know these are draft proposals and this is a negotiation, the final position may well be extremely different from where we are today. But as I said, having a spouse who is non-EU national and having dealt with the Home Office to a great degree I highly doubt they will suddenly be more lenient with EU applications post Brexit when they aren't even doing it now.

All those "expats" who voted Brexit... I am curious to know how 'secure' you are all feeling at the moment given the real possibility that you may well lose your residency rights and healthcare rights etc post Brexit.

Which brings me to my final point. We are actually going to abandon ship (we were based in Spain, in Benalmadena and we quite liked it here but this uncertainty is driving our young family bonkers) and move to the UK because the direction of travel at the moment is for us looking gloomy at best.

Re: Acquired Residency Rights Post Brexit
 

I think you mean to say the Immigration Act 1971 and that is true. The end of freedom of movement will certainly have an effect for those wishing to move to the UK from the EU after April 2019. For those already in the UK as a qualified person then there will be little practical difference. For those wishing to secure their position and acquire full citizenship rights in the UK then they need only make an application for naturalisation.

The same is true of yourself in Spain. If you leave now then you won't be able to take advantage of the grandfathered rights you would have earned by remaining in Spain or take the option of Spanish citizenship when you have fulfilled the residency requirements.

Re: Acquired Residency Rights Post Brexit
 

You might be "almost certain", but I am certainly not.

It will almost certainly depend on whether the British migrants are paying their way and making a positive economic contribution. For example in Spain there are half a million British pensioners spending their pensions in Spain, and I see it as highly unlikely that the Spanish government will kick them out just to be spiteful. Ditto British engineers in Germany, British chemists in France, etc.
Equally secure, and thank you for asking. :)

Re: Acquired Residency Rights Post Brexit
 

Well, I don't understand why you would think Pensioners- who do not pay taxes- are so valuable to be honest with you. If I am to be frank I think that portrays a certain level of arrogance. If I was the Spanish government I would look at the cost benefit analysis of having OAP- the contributions vs the cost of their upkeep. In my opinion it probably costs the government more particularly when you consider health (an area the Spanish government has long claimed the British reimbursements are not enough) etc vs contributions to the local economy.

In any case, that simply disregards that Spain is a global destination that can attract investment from other wealthy individuals across the globe. So I am not convinced.

As for you feeling secure well glad to hear- only time will tell if that security is based on solid foundations or ill informed.

Re: Acquired Residency Rights Post Brexit
 

Well he would feel secure, he lives in the USA, so nothing happening in the EU will directly affect him. :lol:

Re: Acquired Residency Rights Post Brexit
 

Thank you for the correction. But this is my concern exactly- according to May's document these "grandfathered rights" will be reviewed again when you apply for this settled status and doesn't mean you automatically get it.

Which is what I am trying to say; if the British government is being "hostile" towards EU migrants, why wouldn't other EU member states respond in kind? I just look at the direction of travel and the incumbent government and it isn't feeling me with confidence. If we leave now with my family then at least in the worst case scenario- we won't be faced with the prospect of being a family of "third country nationals" who all have to apply under national Immigration law and start all over again.

If we move now I will be back home and won't have to deal with all this uncertainty and the real possibility of it all going t!ts up and then panicking to have our ducks in formation.

So overall our minds are set and we believe the risks outweigh the potential pros that might come out of this Brexit situation.

Re: Acquired Residency Rights Post Brexit
 

Ah I was not aware. It explains it all then :lol:

Re: Acquired Residency Rights Post Brexit
 

Firstly NOTHING has been decided either for people in the UK or UK citizens living in the U, and there does seem to be very open differences between some of May's cabinet as to how to move forward, because of May's weakened position after the election absolutely NOTHING is set in stone and will not be for a while. The EU want to sort out the rights very early on, May wants to delay things, but I suspect she will have to bow down to the forces within her own party who a moving a lot more to a soft Brexit.

Re: Acquired Residency Rights Post Brexit
 

People are valuable to a country for several reasons - not only paying direct income tax, but also sales tax on the goods and services they buy, and on the economic activity they generate - buying food, clothes, and appliances, and eating in restaurants, not to mention use of medical services. All of these things are activities that employ people who pay income taxes, who spend their pay and therefore pay sales tax. .... That is how economics works - one source of income multiplies as the money passes from person to person.

On the other side of the equation, government expenditure, retired people don't have children, so they don't increase the need for schools, or colleges and universities. They don't drive or travel as much, so they don't increase the need for roads and public transport, and when they do travel it isn't usually in the rush hour.

I suspect that in Spain many retired people also act as a magnet for relatives to come and visit, further increasing the "spend" without increasing the need for schools, or public services.

All things considered, in a relatively poor country with plenty of housing, pensioners are a pretty good stimulus for the economy, which is why some countries have visas especially for retired people - because, in short, they bring money but not expenses.

Re: Acquired Residency Rights Post Brexit
 

I have to take you up on that point, some pensions are taxable in the country you live in, the NHS pension for one. I had to declare it and it worked out that I had to pay 2€ in tax, others who might get higher pensions would pay more, The state pension is below the UK threshold and certain government schemes HAVE to be taxed in the UK, BUT pensioners spend their money in the country they live, utilities, food, services etc so ARE contributing to the local economy.

Re: Acquired Residency Rights Post Brexit
 

Totally wrong. I am a pensioner and pay taxes in Spain.

Rosemary

Re: Acquired Residency Rights Post Brexit
 

The idea that anyone is going to start deporting anyone else's citizens is faintly ludicrous given the numbers involved and Europe's recent track record dealing with migrants from outside the EU. Move back now if you want to but you'll be really jumping the gun and I suspect you'll deeply regret it once the dust settles and you find out you could have easily stayed on after all.

Re: Acquired Residency Rights Post Brexit
 

Also considering that everybody is spending money. Even the unemployed. We all eat, drink, consume. If that is enough to count for economic contribution everyone should be fine everywhere.

Re: Acquired Residency Rights Post Brexit
 

With a VAT rate of 21% (in Spain) many people pay more in VAT than they do in income tax.

Re: Acquired Residency Rights Post Brexit
 

So? Are you saying that people who are on welfare and spend their money are more valuable than the employed that are raising kids and use kindergarten and schools? Don’t get me wrong, I am absolutely against the talk about how useful people are for the economy. That is why I am for freedom of movement for all - that includes the poor, the sick, and the old.

However, I take issue with the weird attitude that the Europeans in the UK are somehow a burden while the old Brits in Spain are the "motor of the Spanish economy". I can only tell you from an American friend, who is not poor and is not rich either, and who had to abandon plans to retire in Spain because of the requirements. I totally assume that this will be - in future - the case for many British retirees as well unless you argue that Americans are somehow less useful than British retirees are. I think that things will change for the British and I believe it very likely that many British will not be able to retire in Spain. This is the price to pay for sovereignty and for giving up an the freedom of movement.

Re: Acquired Residency Rights Post Brexit
 

I didn't say anything about people who are on Welfare, I didn't even mention them! :confused:

Re: Acquired Residency Rights Post Brexit
 

Re: Acquired Residency Rights Post Brexit
 

Just simple economics- half a million pensioners spending X amount in Spain gives jobs and through the multiplier effect a definite plus to the Spanish economy- and one cant replace 500,000 people overnight. I agree, the Spanish government should look at the costs vs benefits post-Brexit but I am fairly sure the amount spent by those pensioners exceeds whatever support costs Spain pays. There is a reason many countries actively seek to attract pensioners.

Re: Acquired Residency Rights Post Brexit
 

Just think of all the Spanish people who are employed directly or indirectly in areas where British expats live. The Spanish Govt would be very aware of this.

Re: Acquired Residency Rights Post Brexit
 

Amazing that the British government has not cottoned-on to that yet ??

Re: Acquired Residency Rights Post Brexit
 

As long as you're "fairly sure", that should be enough to reassure any government worth its salt without going to the bother of any further analysis :)

However, given that the average UK pension is £18,000 and that many of those moving abroad do so, amongst other things, for a cheaper cost of living, there's always a chance that many of them might not actually represent a nett gain to the Spanish economy.

Take away the reciprocal charging on healthcare, pass the costs of that to the Spanish government and then consider whether an average or lower than average UK pension is always a benefit to the Spanish economy.

Under the current arrangements within the EU, I'd say it's sensible for southern EU states to take the broad view that overall, retirees from the north bring some benefits. However, given how picky some statisticians ;) can be about every individual migrant to the UK and whether they are likely to be an economic benefit to society over an entire lifetime, a similar approach from the Spanish or other governments when it comes to UK pensioners, if they are able to in future because of Brexit, could see them applying a filter on the grounds of income rather than accepting all as they must at the moment. After all, they probably don't welcome non EU retirees with under a set income or assets level and without health insurance.

Re: Acquired Residency Rights Post Brexit
 

Good points ! I wonder if there are articles you have come across on the subject ?

Re: Acquired Residency Rights Post Brexit
 

The Spanish government does today ask you demonstrate sufficient income so as not to be a "Burden on the State" , the actual income figure required is open to a very wide series of interpretations by local administrations.

Re: Acquired Residency Rights Post Brexit
 

For EU citizens, it can't be any more than the national minimum wage.

Re: Acquired Residency Rights Post Brexit
 

Why should the Spanish government be aware of this? Does it matter to the British and their government that 3 million hard working, tax paying EU citizens live, rent, consume in the UK? No, the British <snip> want them out. Why should the Spanish not return the favor? You always expect the Europeans to react sensibly and pragmatic about your emotional, irresponsible and irrational Brexit vote. Why do the British not act responsible ? Why are the British hell bend in getting rid of us Europeans? Why are the British prepared to damage their economy? And why the heck do think that Europeans can't respond in term?

If the freedom of movement will go British senior will only be able to retire if they have enough money and private health care. No European will pay a penny for a British citizens who wants to retire on EU soil. Period.

Re: Acquired Residency Rights Post Brexit
 

However it can't hurt to prepare for the worst. I am finally selling up my house in the UK as now having cash reserves is more valuable than having the asset as if I do have to come back I will need to go wherever there might actually be a job (when I left it was pretty pathetic to be honest, unless you liked door to door sales). Also if I'd like to not be separated from my family I will need the hard cash for the Home Office. If I get to stay great I will invest in the business and build it up. If I have to go well, who knows. It's very stressful and frankly starting to affect my life and motivation levels.

Fortunately I don't have to worry about the NHS as I pay the local taxes and National Insurance.

It is a quandry as who knows how my country of residence will decide to act in the end. Fortunately I have connections here but am self employed and this is only year one so the income is rather low at the moment...........

I doubt people will get actively deported but I am sure May (if she survives that long) will make it harder and harder to exist in the UK until people are defacto forced to leave. It's what the Tories want.

Re: Acquired Residency Rights Post Brexit
 

I didn't think paying taxes or having an NI number is required to qualify for NHS coverage as a resident British citizen.

Re: Acquired Residency Rights Post Brexit
 

The two are completely unrelated. Access to free NHS secondary care is residency based. You can pay NI contributions from abroad as a non-UK resident but still be ineligible.

Re: Acquired Residency Rights Post Brexit
 

Thanks much. Never had an NI number nor paid local taxes having always lived abroad (outside UK). Assuming primary care access is also residency based.

Re: Acquired Residency Rights Post Brexit
 

Primary care is free of charge regardless of your status. Hence tourists can be patched up at A&E after an accident without incurring a large bill but any time spent in a hospital bed will need to covered by an EHIC card, travel insurance or out of their own pocket.

Re: Acquired Residency Rights Post Brexit
 

Very helpful clarification, thanks again.

Re: Acquired Residency Rights Post Brexit
 

Is anyone, not tired of helping out newbies like us, willing to recommend a currency specialist? Apologies for going over ground trodden by many before, but I can't find up to date posts on this site that cover this or the Tax issue.

On that subject; is there anybody living in the Valencia Region who is willing to divulge how much they pay on taxes for their private pension? Obviously specifics is too high an ask, but for budgeting purposes, anything would help. Also taking into account the Spanish personal allowance, presuming they have one.

Please don't laugh too hard concerning our naivety. We all have a start somewhere and we are trying not to be one of those gullible couples who blindly blunder into retirement. Even links would help.

Re: Acquired Residency Rights Post Brexit
 

The attached table shows the different rates. Income tax declaration required when income exceeds Euro 22,000,- .

For currency transfers on a regular basis Transferwise is excellent.

Re: Acquired Residency Rights Post Brexit
 

Thanks for this. Is that 22000€ before tax is started to be app? Is it per person, per household or per couple?

Re: Acquired Residency Rights Post Brexit
 

The 22000€ minimum is for working people with one source of income

On a personal level, if you are receiving a foreign pension , e.g. Ex-UK when no tax has been deducted at source I think the limit is 12000€