poptarvish

Hi BritInParis,

Thank you for getting back to my enquiry.
I don't know if he was recruited in the UK? How could I find this out??
However, I do know that at the time of my mother's birth he was serving
as a Major in the 17th Dogra Regiment in India. It says so on my mother's birth certificate.
Are there any public records where one can check on people who served in Crown Service.

Thank you Pop

BritInParis

The 17th Dogra Regiment was a British Indian Army regiment so he may not have been recruited in the UK. What was his full name? Does your mother's birth certificate show his service number?

poptarvish

Hello BritInParis,

On the birth certificate the categories relating to my grandfather are:
Name & surname of father: Maurice Herbert Bickford
Rank or profession of father: Major 17th Dogra Regiment British

Is there some national record of these regiments which one could look at for more information?

Many thanks! Pop

poptarvish

Hello again,

I just found this document online:
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/.../7817/data.pdf

you will find my grandfather's name right at the bottom of the page in the right hand column, which shows he was at Sandhurst (Royal Military College) in 1906.

Do you think this might be of use?

Thank you Pop

BritInParis

So we can see he was commissioned into The King's (Shropshire Light Infantry) as a subaltern in November 1906. He was then transferred to the 38th Dogras in October 1908 and promoted to Lieutenant in February 1909 and promoted again temporarily to Captain in September 1915 before his new rank was made substantive in November 1915. The substantive rank was later backdated to September 1915 but with no extra pay! He was later promoted to Major in November 1921 and held this rank until promoted to Lieutenant Colonel in November 1932 which the rank he held until he retired in December 1940.

We now therefore have a paper trail showing your grandfather's recruitment into the British Army in the United Kingdom before being transferred to the British Indian Army where he was serving at the time of your mother's birth in 1931. That your mother's birth certificate states he was a Major in the 17th Dogra Regiment, rather than the 38th Dogras, makes sense as the 38th Dogras became the 2nd Battalion, 17th Dogra Regiment in 1922 according to Wikipedia.

You will need to obtain your grandfather's military records from the Ministry of Defence for the period covering your mother's birth. Those combined with your mother's birth certificate should be sufficient.

I've also found the index reference for your grandfather's birth certificate which you will need to order from the General Register Office unless you already possess a copy.

As you were born to a British mother before 1983 you'll still need to lodge an application to register as a British citizen with the Home Office although the application itself is free and you need only pay £80 towards the cost of your citizenship ceremony. As the UK remains an EU country for the time being as a German citizen you do not need to obtain permission from the German government before becoming a British citizen in order to retain your German citizenship (Beibehaltung der deutschen Staatsangehörigkeit). If you are based in Germany then you'll have your citizenship ceremony at your local British consulate: either Berlin, München or Düsseldorf.

As a postscript it is interesting to note your great-grandfather was Admiral Andrew Kennedy Bickford CMG, Commander-in-Chief, Pacific Station 1900-1903, who was himself born in India. There's a tower at a major Canadian naval base named after him should you ever want to visit. Further interesting family history concerning your great uncles can be found here.

spouse of scouse

BiP

Dorothy

Indeed.

poptarvish

Dear BritInParis,

Thak you so much for your amazing help! With all the organisations & officials I have spoken to over the years, you are the only one that has really helped me!

Here are hopefully some final questions:
I do live in the UK, have done for most of my life. Last year I made an application for British citizenship using the UKM form.
I sent in my & my mother's birth certificates & my mother's passport as proof. However my application was refused on the grounds that my mother became a CUKC "by decent" under the BNA 1948.
The Secretary of State's letter says that: "..under the BNA 1948 your mother became a CUKC under section 12(2), which is a decent provision. As she was CUKC "by decent" she would not therefore have been able to pass that status on to you."

This brings me back to my original question. Since the BNA of 1981, would she not have simply become a "British Citizen" otherwise than by decent?

Is my mother currently a 'British Citizen otherwise than by decent'?

If she is, do you suggest that I reapply using the UKM form with my right for 're-consideration'?
How shall I argue the case for my re-consideration application?
Are you suggesting that the addition of my grandfather's military records + his birth certificate are the only extra pieces of information I require??

I just want to be sure of my mother's current status & the necessary additions I need to make for a re-application.....

Many, many thanks again Pop

poptarvish

Yes I did know about my great grandfather! We have a little book about him - I was going to tell you about it, should you have needed it.....but you clearly didn't. And it would be amazing to see that tower in his name in Canada!! I have never been to Canada as yet....

Thank you again Pop

BritInParis

Based on your grandfather's Crown service that would appear to be the case.

Correct. I would include a covering letter explaining that your grandfather was in Crown service at the time of your mother's birth and that he was recruited for that service in the UK along with his military records. You could also throw in print-offs of the relevant London Gazette pages for good measure.

poptarvish

Hi BritInParis,

Many thanks again! - I am just getting my papers together, but will let you know how it all pans out.

Best wishes Pop

BritInParis

Not a problem. Let us know how you get on.

poptarvish

Hi Brit In Paris,

I have been trying to get all the paper work together for my grandfather - have been trying to get his military records from the Ministry of Defence, however they called me to say that they have almost no records, except a couple when he started out in the army - that he went to Sandhurst (Royal Military College).
The ones that we found on the internet from the London Gazette, they told me, need to be contacted separately (I have no idea where the records are kept that informed the London Gazette?). They also told me that I need to contact the British Library for my grandfather's records of his time in the Indian Army - apparently they are kept separately & the Ministry of Defence keeps none of those.....Do I need to show records of his time in the Indian Army?

So my main question is how do I show that my grandfather was recruited in the UK? - what do they mean by this? - my understanding is that the Indian Army was part of the British army anyway, it was under British control (?).
So I was hoping you could tell me how far I need to dig for these papers, as pre-Indian Army there appears to be hardly anything. What type of documents are we looking for & what time frame - as close to the date of my mother's birth as possible? When my mother was born he was already serving in the Indian army.....

What do you think I need - how many documents, covering what sort of period.....?

Many thanks again!

Pop

angie_329

I cannot say what exactly you will need to submit- will leave that to BIP- but findmy past has military records which they gather from various sources- maybe someone on the forum who is experienced in searching can help you.

Military, armed forces & conflict | findmypast.co.uk

find my past also sources from the national archives in Kew I think- I am not sure whether they source also from the British Libarary which was mentioned to you.

British Army soldiers after 1913 - The National Archives

NA also mention a source of information as the' gazette'

the gazette states it is an 'official public record' so data fromit it may suffice?
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/

I also found this
https://www.forces-war-records.co.uk/collections/

BritInParis

Those are important as it shows he was recruited in the UK.

The British Library will contain the records of your grandfather's Indian Army service. You'll need records to show his transfer from the British Army to the Indian Army and his subsequent transfers and promotions that led to the relevant service shown on your mother's birth certificate. These should match the London Gazette citations.

Your grandfather's commission from Sandhurst will be enough to show that he was recruited in the UK. You then need to provide the paper trail to show that his transfer into the Indian Army was part of his continuous Crown service. The principle is that your mother shouldn't be penalised under British nationality law because your grandfather was only abroad due to his Crown service for which he was recruited in the UK. If he had gone abroad voluntarily and was recruited in India, for instance, then this wouldn't count.

Initially I would obtain the records from the MOD covering his recruitment and commission. They may also include his transfer to the Indian Army. The relevant pages from the London Gazette together with a covering letter explaining the narrative may suffice without having to resort to trawling through the British Library archives.