Mat_Walsh

Am I entitled to British Citizenship by Double Descent? Hi Everyone
I have been doing some research on this but was wondering if anyone else could shed some light on the subject or assist me in any way or point me in the right direction. Im trying to get some advice about my possible eligibility to get British Citizenship/British Passport.

My maternal, grandfather (UK Born) was deployed to South Africa during WW2 where he met my South African grandmother. My Mother was born in South Africa on 22 September 1945. He was in the RAF at the time my mother was born. My Grandfather and Grandmother decided after the war to remain in South Africa.

My mother still lives in South African and has SA passport etc, she has since applied and received her British Passport and is still living in South Africa. I am not sure but i think she received her British Passport based on by descent.

I was born in South Africa in 1984

Is it possible to claim British Citizenship by double descent because of my grandfather's time in the army? Even though I am over 18 and have an SA passport?

If it is possible, how do I go about all this?

I do have the documents showing that he was in the RAF during the time my mother was born and his deployment details.

I am hoping that someone can assist me with this.

Thank You

knighstrike

My mistake on my previous reply.

It seems you can. Though it's not straight-forward.

WhatPassport | British Citizenship by Double Descent

You were born after 01.01.1983

-You have a UK-born grandparent who was in Crown Service at the time of your parent's birth;

-A parent was born in a Post 1949 British Colony and one of their parents (i.e. your grandparent) was born in the UK; OR

-A parent was born before 1949 in a British Protectorate, British Protected State or Mandated Territory and one of their parents (i.e. your grandparent) was born in the UK.

Mat_Walsh

Hi Knighstrike

Thank you for the info.
Any idea who i can contact to get this process going?
Do i have to meet all 4 of the requirements below?

My mother was born in South Africa in 1945 and i am not sure it falls into any of these categories? I was however born after 1983.

You were born after 01.01.1983

-You have a UK-born grandparent who was in Crown Service at the time of your parent's birth;

-A parent was born in a Post 1949 British Colony and one of their parents (i.e. your grandparent) was born in the UK; OR

-A parent was born before 1949 in a British Protectorate, British Protected State or Mandated Territory and one of their parents (i.e. your grandparent) was born in the UK.

knighstrike

You don't have to meet all three. It's just a checklist if you are eligible. And you are, you met two qualificiations, since your mother was born in South Africa in 1945 back when it was still a British Protectorate and your grandfather was born in the UK and was also in Crown Service.

Though like I said, it's still not a straight-forward case and I suggest you try to seek legal advice. I know one so just tell me if you want me to send you the link to their website via PM.

BritInParis

If your grandfather was in Crown service at the time your mother was born in South Africa then your mother would have become a British citizen otherwise than by descent on 1 January 1983 meaning that when you were born in 1984 you automatically received British citizenship by descent.

Consular birth registration is not available for births in South Africa so you should just apply directly for your British passport.

https://www.gov.uk/overseas-passports

You'll need evidence to show that your grandfather was in Crown service at the time of your mother's birth and that he was recruited for that service in the UK. You'll also need his birth and marriage certificates and your mother's birth certificate as well as your own.

Mat_Walsh

Hi BritInParis

Is this all i need? Has anyone done this before?

I was looking through my Grandfathers papers today and i have his RAF Certificate of Service and Release, Overseas Service (Which indicates he was in South Africa from June1941 to Dec 1945. My mother was born in September 1945 in South Africa.

I dont however have his British Passport. Is that important?

I do have his Birth Certificates, Marriage Certificates, Parents Birth and Marriage Certificates.

In my mothers British Passport is says she is a British Citizen, does that mean she can automatically pass it onto me?

How would i apply for this, straight through the website listed above and below?

https://www.gov.uk/overseas-passports

Thank You

BritInParis

That should suffice based on what you have said and, no, you wouldn't be the first person to receive British citizenship due to their grandfather's Crown service. It's a fairly common occurrence. A friend of mine has a British passport despite his last British ancestor being born in pre-independence Ireland in the 1800s because each successive generation were serving in the British army when the next was born.

So far so good. What rank did your grandfather? Officer or enlisted? Do his papers indicate where he was recruited?

Helpful but not essential.

Those will be essential. They will need to be originals not photocopies.

Not necessarily. British passports do not indicate whether a person is British otherwise than by descent or by descent. However from what you have said you would be eligible due to your grandfather being in Crown service at the time of your mother's birth.

Correct.

You're welcome. Let us know how you get on.

Mat_Walsh

Hi BritInParis

I am not sure what Rank he was or where he was enlisted.
Does this matter?

I will have a look through again tomorrow.

I can't seem to find on the British Passport application website an option for Double Descent?

Would it not be better or is there any benefit in having someone like Philip Gamble and Partners look into this for me?

I don't want to make a mistake or mess up my chances..

Thank You for your help

BritInParis

He will need to have been recruited in the UK for you to be eligible. If he was an officer then the assumption is made that he was as all British officers are required to attend one of the officer training colleges in the UK - in the RAF's case, RAF Cranwell.

His discharge papers should state his rank he left service and where he was initially recruited.

That is because there is no such thing as "Double Descent" in British nationality law. If you're born outside the UK to a British parent then you will only receive British citizenship automatically if that parent is British otherwise than by descent. Your mother was also born outside the UK and so would usually would only be a British citizen by descent herself unless her father was in Crown service at the time of her birth for which he was recruited in the UK. This is what you need to prove for your application to be successful.

No, not really. They'll only tell you what I've told you and my services are free of charge Providing you can gather the relevant documents then you only need to make your application. You can't mess up your chances - if you're eligible, then you're eligible. If you don't provide the documents they require, they'll ask for them. Worst case scenario you just apply again with the correct supporting evidence.

formula

Something like this might help?

Looking for records of the Second World War | The National Archives

Mat_Walsh

Thanks for all the help.

I will get all his documents together and take a look.
I will then obviously have to write a supporting letter with my application and include all the information in guessing.

Once i have all his information would you mind taking a look?

Do all documents have to be original?

I know he was training to be a Spitfire Pilot and then the war broke out and he was then assigned to maintenance as a fitter and turner. Then in 1941 he was deployed to South Africa.

How i prove that i am not sure.

Thank you for all your help.

Thank You

Mat_Walsh

Thanks for this.
Not even sure where to start here though?

not2old

his name, his rank, his service number and any information that's around the edge of any service medals that you have of his

maybe start here

Looking for records of the Second World War | The National Archives

Records created or inherited by the Air Ministry, the Royal Air Force, and related bodies | The National Archives

example

http://discovery.nationalarchives.go...c-4c9b2d438b5c

RECORDS OF SERVICE CARDS - DATES OF BIRTH BEFORE 1900 | The National Archives

not2old

and there is this

https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military...cords/overview

https://www.gov.uk/requests-for-pers...ervice-records

BritInParis

Might be tricky if you're in South Africa. You can post a list of what you have though

Yes. Original in the sense that they are as issued, no photocopies.

Unlikely to be an officer then but still qualifies as he was recruited in the UK.

You previously stated you had your grandfather's RAF Certificate of Service and Release that stated his service dates which covered your mother's birthday. That should suffice providing it also lists his place of recruitment. Otherwise you may need to contact the MOD to obtain a letter stating his place of recruitment and service dates.