British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)

Old Aug 1st 2023, 10:32 pm
  #151  
Just Joined
 
Joined: Jul 2023
Location: London
Posts: 4
Minimum_Watch1238 is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)

Thank you very much for taking the time to respond. Very helpful!

Appreciate that we are going to need to show that the case is "exceptional" and that the issue was at the Home Office.

We have done as you suggest and made the FOI request as well as requesting my father's naturalisation file from the Home Office.

We should receive a response to both of these within 20 BDs. We will let you know once we receive a response and if this strengthens our case in any material way.
Minimum_Watch1238 is offline  
Old Aug 3rd 2023, 11:28 pm
  #152  
Forum Regular
 
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 154
jmin has a reputation beyond reputejmin has a reputation beyond reputejmin has a reputation beyond reputejmin has a reputation beyond reputejmin has a reputation beyond reputejmin has a reputation beyond reputejmin has a reputation beyond reputejmin has a reputation beyond reputejmin has a reputation beyond reputejmin has a reputation beyond reputejmin has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)

Originally Posted by ARheeder
My mother has her British citizenship, she acquired it through her mother (decent), but only recently (2019).
My parents moved to South Africa in 1980. My father was South African by decent, and my mother applied for neutralization.
Could my father apply for citizenship through my mother?

Thank you so much, for taking the time to help.
You are eligible to register as a British citizen using the 4L route (historical legislative unfairness/gender discrimination). Once you are a British citizen, any child born to you after registration will be a British citizen by descent. Minor children born before the registration are eligible for registration using section 3(1) because 4L is listed in the caseworker guidance for 3(1) registrations. Do you know how specifically your mother became a british citizen in 2019? It does not appear the she is by descent but would instead have registered using UKM/4C (which proves gender discrimination and is useful to mention in your own application). Did she register using Form UKM? (It is a section 4C registration). It would be useful to know to insert into your claim below.

Claim: If not for historical legislative unfairness/gender discrimination my mother could have registered me under BNA 1981 Section 9 (consular birth registration). I am therefore eligible to register as a British Citizen due to the recent changes in British Nationality Law (Section 4L of BNA 1981 which came into force on 28 June 2022).
  1. I was born in 1983 in South Africa. (South Africa is a foreign country under the act from 31 May 1962 to 25 July 1994, important to include this here for the examiner because section 9 registrations require birth in a foreign country under the meaning of the act - many countries are not considered 'foreign' countries).
  2. I was born during BNA 1981's transitional period for consular birth registrations (1983-1987). (Section 9 of BNA 1981)
  3. My mother, born in Southern Rhodesia in 1960, could have been a British citizen by descent if not for gender discrimination (if this was a UKM/4C registration put 'she subsequently acquired British citizenship after my birth in 2019 because the law changed to address this historical legislative unfairness through section 4C'). Specifically, if not for gender discrimination she could have been a British citizen because her mother (my maternal grandmother) was born in the UK in 1934.
  4. My maternal grandmother was born in the United Kingdom in the meaning used in BNA 1981 (birth within the United Kingdom and Islands - specifically where so the examiner understands you mean UK as in England/Scotland/Wales/NI)
  5. I would have had the right of abode under the test set out in section 9(1)(b) of BNA 1981 because my maternal grandmother was born in the United Kingdom (Immigration Act of 1971 section 2(1)(b)(ii)).
  6. I satisfy the test in section 9(2) of BNA 1981 because:
  • Immediately before the commencement of BNA 1981 my mother could have been a CUKC by descent if not for historical legislative unfairness/gender discrimination (Section 5 of the 1948 Act) Note: If she did register using Form UKM/4C mention it but regardless section 9 only applied to fathers so gender discrimination that your mother could not make use of when you were born in 1983).
  • My mother married my father in 1979 and remained married when I was born in 1983 (although whether or not they were married at the time of my birth is immaterial as it is also historical legislative unfairness)
  • My mother was 'ordinarily resident' in a foreign country under the meaning of the 1948 Act (South Africa is a foreign country under the act from 31 May 1962 to 25 July 1994 and my mother became ordinarily resident in South Africa in 1980).
  • My mother would have become a British Citizen on commencement of BNA 1981 if not for historical legislative unfairness/gender discrimination (CUKCs by descent with a parent born in the UK became British Citizens on commencement by section 11(1) of BNA 1981).

Last edited by jmin; Aug 3rd 2023 at 11:44 pm.
jmin is offline  
Old Aug 4th 2023, 5:43 am
  #153  
Just Joined
 
Joined: Jul 2023
Posts: 9
ARheeder is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)

Originally Posted by jmin
You are eligible to register as a British citizen using the 4L route (historical legislative unfairness/gender discrimination). Once you are a British citizen, any child born to you after registration will be a British citizen by descent. Minor children born before the registration are eligible for registration using section 3(1) because 4L is listed in the caseworker guidance for 3(1) registrations. Do you know how specifically your mother became a british citizen in 2019? It does not appear the she is by descent but would instead have registered using UKM/4C (which proves gender discrimination and is useful to mention in your own application). Did she register using Form UKM? (It is a section 4C registration). It would be useful to know to insert into your claim below.

Claim: If not for historical legislative unfairness/gender discrimination my mother could have registered me under BNA 1981 Section 9 (consular birth registration). I am therefore eligible to register as a British Citizen due to the recent changes in British Nationality Law (Section 4L of BNA 1981 which came into force on 28 June 2022).
  1. I was born in 1983 in South Africa. (South Africa is a foreign country under the act from 31 May 1962 to 25 July 1994, important to include this here for the examiner because section 9 registrations require birth in a foreign country under the meaning of the act - many countries are not considered 'foreign' countries).
  2. I was born during BNA 1981's transitional period for consular birth registrations (1983-1987). (Section 9 of BNA 1981)
  3. My mother, born in Southern Rhodesia in 1960, could have been a British citizen by descent if not for gender discrimination (if this was a UKM/4C registration put 'she subsequently acquired British citizenship after my birth in 2019 because the law changed to address this historical legislative unfairness through section 4C'). Specifically, if not for gender discrimination she could have been a British citizen because her mother (my maternal grandmother) was born in the UK in 1934.
  4. My maternal grandmother was born in the United Kingdom in the meaning used in BNA 1981 (birth within the United Kingdom and Islands - specifically where so the examiner understands you mean UK as in England/Scotland/Wales/NI)
  5. I would have had the right of abode under the test set out in section 9(1)(b) of BNA 1981 because my maternal grandmother was born in the United Kingdom (Immigration Act of 1971 section 2(1)(b)(ii)).
  6. I satisfy the test in section 9(2) of BNA 1981 because:
  • Immediately before the commencement of BNA 1981 my mother could have been a CUKC by descent if not for historical legislative unfairness/gender discrimination (Section 5 of the 1948 Act) Note: If she did register using Form UKM/4C mention it but regardless section 9 only applied to fathers so gender discrimination that your mother could not make use of when you were born in 1983).
  • My mother married my father in 1979 and remained married when I was born in 1983 (although whether or not they were married at the time of my birth is immaterial as it is also historical legislative unfairness)
  • My mother was 'ordinarily resident' in a foreign country under the meaning of the 1948 Act (South Africa is a foreign country under the act from 31 May 1962 to 25 July 1994 and my mother became ordinarily resident in South Africa in 1980).
  • My mother would have become a British Citizen on commencement of BNA 1981 if not for historical legislative unfairness/gender discrimination (CUKCs by descent with a parent born in the UK became British Citizens on commencement by section 11(1) of BNA 1981).
Thank you so much for your incredibly helpful response! I believe my mom registered using Form UKM/4C, as you mentioned.
The claim you've crafted for me seems like it could be a straightforward one, which is fantastic! I was wondering, do you think my dad might be able to leverage the gender discrimination law to obtain citizenship through my mom? Your insights are greatly appreciated. Thank you once again!
ARheeder is offline  
Old Aug 4th 2023, 7:34 am
  #154  
Forum Regular
 
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 154
jmin has a reputation beyond reputejmin has a reputation beyond reputejmin has a reputation beyond reputejmin has a reputation beyond reputejmin has a reputation beyond reputejmin has a reputation beyond reputejmin has a reputation beyond reputejmin has a reputation beyond reputejmin has a reputation beyond reputejmin has a reputation beyond reputejmin has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)

Originally Posted by ARheeder
Thank you so much for your incredibly helpful response! I believe my mom registered using Form UKM/4C, as you mentioned.
The claim you've crafted for me seems like it could be a straightforward one, which is fantastic! I was wondering, do you think my dad might be able to leverage the gender discrimination law to obtain citizenship through my mom? Your insights are greatly appreciated. Thank you once again!
I am happy to help. It is a relatively straightforward claim and I hope that, if approved, the citizenship makes a difference in your life. Keep us updated with the application progress.

As for your father, the Home Office is apparently not approving 4L marriage arguments. Perhaps that will change in the future as it is also a historical unfairness. Your father might have a claim through another route, though. Please provide me with the year and place of birth for your father’s paternal and maternal grandparents (I can start with just place of birth but year would be helpful if you know). Also if his grandparents were married at the time of your fathers parents births.

Last edited by jmin; Aug 4th 2023 at 7:39 am.
jmin is offline  
Old Aug 5th 2023, 12:30 am
  #155  
Forum Regular
 
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 154
jmin has a reputation beyond reputejmin has a reputation beyond reputejmin has a reputation beyond reputejmin has a reputation beyond reputejmin has a reputation beyond reputejmin has a reputation beyond reputejmin has a reputation beyond reputejmin has a reputation beyond reputejmin has a reputation beyond reputejmin has a reputation beyond reputejmin has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)

Originally Posted by Minimum_Watch1238
Thank you very much for taking the time to respond. Very helpful!

Appreciate that we are going to need to show that the case is "exceptional" and that the issue was at the Home Office.

We have done as you suggest and made the FOI request as well as requesting my father's naturalisation file from the Home Office.

We should receive a response to both of these within 20 BDs. We will let you know once we receive a response and if this strengthens our case in any material way.
I know that you said that your father's application was not based on rights from his grandparents, but were any of your own grandparents born in the UK? Or somewhere with a British connection when they were born? If so, what year were they born and where. Were your parents married at the time of your birth (not married could give rise to a claim depending on where your own grandparents were born). Otherwise, I do hope you find the proverbial needle in a haystack and there is a notation in his file that the application was lost.
jmin is offline  
Old Aug 6th 2023, 8:52 pm
  #156  
Just Joined
 
Joined: Jul 2023
Posts: 9
ARheeder is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)

Originally Posted by jmin
I am happy to help. It is a relatively straightforward claim and I hope that, if approved, the citizenship makes a difference in your life. Keep us updated with the application progress.

As for your father, the Home Office is apparently not approving 4L marriage arguments. Perhaps that will change in the future as it is also a historical unfairness. Your father might have a claim through another route, though. Please provide me with the year and place of birth for your father’s paternal and maternal grandparents (I can start with just place of birth but year would be helpful if you know). Also if his grandparents were married at the time of your fathers parents births.
My father's side of the family are very South African. I'm not sure if the province they were born in makes a difference?
Paternal Grandfather was Born in The Orange Free State (1885)
Paternal Grandmother was born in The Cape (1892)
They were married in 1918

Maternal Grandfather was born in The Cape (1890)
Maternal Grandmother was born in The Cape (1896)
They were married in 1912


My father's father was born in Natal in 1927 and left for Northern Rhodesia in 1946. I'm not sure if he became a South African citizen in 1949 when SA became an independent Commonwealth country, as he was not domiciled in SA on 1 Jan 1949?

Would a sibling born before 1 Jan 1983 also have a 4L claim, or is pre 1983 a different claim.

Again, thanks a million!



Last edited by ARheeder; Aug 6th 2023 at 9:19 pm. Reason: forgot to ask 2nd question
ARheeder is offline  
Old Aug 7th 2023, 1:36 am
  #157  
Forum Regular
 
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 154
jmin has a reputation beyond reputejmin has a reputation beyond reputejmin has a reputation beyond reputejmin has a reputation beyond reputejmin has a reputation beyond reputejmin has a reputation beyond reputejmin has a reputation beyond reputejmin has a reputation beyond reputejmin has a reputation beyond reputejmin has a reputation beyond reputejmin has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)

Originally Posted by ARheeder

Would a sibling born before 1 Jan 1983 also have a 4L claim, or is pre 1983 a different claim.

Again, thanks a million!
When and where was your sibling born? The sibling likely has a route through UKM/4C so once I have the sibling's details I will give you a claim the sibling can use.

It will take me a bit longer to come back to you about your father. Since the grandfather left South Africa before 1949 he would have retained British subject status and then gained CUKC status. Did your father or his father spend a substantial amount of time in the UK before 1983? I need investigate this a bit further.

Last edited by jmin; Aug 7th 2023 at 1:49 am.
jmin is offline  
Old Aug 8th 2023, 7:58 am
  #158  
Just Joined
 
Joined: Jul 2023
Posts: 9
ARheeder is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)

Originally Posted by jmin
When and where was your sibling born? The sibling likely has a route through UKM/4C so once I have the sibling's details I will give you a claim the sibling can use.

It will take me a bit longer to come back to you about your father. Since the grandfather left South Africa before 1949 he would have retained British subject status and then gained CUKC status. Did your father or his father spend a substantial amount of time in the UK before 1983? I need investigate this a bit further.
My sibling was born in South Africa in 1982.
As for my father and grandfather, neither of them spent any time in the UK.
ARheeder is offline  
Old Aug 14th 2023, 6:39 am
  #159  
Just Joined
 
Joined: Feb 2023
Posts: 16
MOUK is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)

Good evening everyone,
It's been a pleasure reading through your posts. Congratulations to those of you who've recently been registered as British citizens under section 4L. Hats off to jmin & others for helping people on here with their applications.

Happy to be joining the conversation.

My sister and I applied through a solicitor. Applications were submitted on February 9th.
We submitted our biometrics on April 2nd at the TLSContact office in Amman.
On April 12th, the HO requested a 5 year address history from both of us. Those were sent within 30 mins, same addresses to date.
We are still waiting for the decision.

-We were both born during the 5 year transitional period 83-87, in Amman Jordan.
-Our mother was also born in Jordan in 1960.
-Our maternal grandmother was born in Liverpool-England in 1930. Her parents were also born in the UK, though that's irrelevant here.
-Our maternal grandparents (British grandmother & Jordanian grandfather) got married in the UK in 1950.
-Our mother was registered as a British citizen in 2010, under section 4C/Form UKM. Section 4C was amended in 2009-2010 to allow those born before 1963 to UK born mothers, to register as British Citizens. My mother's application was decided in a couple of months back then, I believe she applied in January 2010, approved in March, & was registered in May 2010.

I believe our claim was based on section 9 of the BNA 1981. Had the law treated men & women equally, our mother would have been born British, and she could have registered our births at a UK consulate.

Will keep you posted.

Last edited by MOUK; Aug 14th 2023 at 6:42 am. Reason: added ifno
MOUK is offline  
Old Aug 16th 2023, 11:18 pm
  #160  
Just Joined
 
Joined: Feb 2023
Posts: 16
MOUK is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)

Good afternoon,

I have some section 4L news; two of our cousins (siblings) born before 82, received their approvals yesterday. I do not have their precise timelines, but we do know they applied before us. It might have been December or January. We also know they submitted their biometrics around 2 months after we did. They applied through a solicitor.

We share the other details, same country of birth, same grandma, etc. Our aunt was registered the same way our mum was, & they attended the ceremony together in 2010.

So, things are moving.
MOUK is offline  
Old Aug 21st 2023, 7:31 pm
  #161  
Forum Regular
 
Joined: Oct 2022
Posts: 64
Glassybell is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)

Hello - just wondering what I should do if my application has taken more than 6 months and I've gotten no response to my email inquiry about it. I applied (from the US) in November 2022 using ARD and did biometrics at the end of January 2023. I emailed on August 1 2023 and haven't gotten a reply (other than auto-response). They have a few more days until the 20 day response window they give themselves is over... if I don't get a reply, is there anything more I can do to find out about my application?

My application shouldn't be hard to make a decision on! I was born before 1983 in the US to a mom born in the 1950s in the US to a mom born in England in 1923. My grandmother retained her UK citizenship throughout her life and never naturalized in the US. My mother never did the UKM form (she died before she could - something I forgot to mention in my application). I've received no follow-ups for more info regarding my application. They did return all of my documents last month after I emailed asking for them.
Glassybell is offline  
Old Sep 8th 2023, 5:09 am
  #162  
Just Joined
 
Joined: Dec 2022
Location: USA
Posts: 18
Tlk1677 is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)

Originally Posted by Glassybell
Thank you all! I've done a lot of reading the past couple days and I now understand why my claim is automatic. I really appreciate your help.

I'm wondering if someone could glance at the claim I've written up for my case. I modeled it on what has been posted here for other people but tailored it to my case. I just want to make sure it's sound. I have a longer narrative version too that I will print and attach to my application, but I want to use this shorter one for the handwritten section in 1.5. Thanks in advance!

Claim: If not for historical legislative unfairness/gender discrimination my mother could have registered me at birth as a British citizen by descent under Section 5(1)(b) of the 1948 British Nationality Act (consular birth registration). I am therefore now eligible to register as a British citizen due to the recent changes in to BNA 1981, specifically Section 4L and Section 4C(3D), as well as Section 4C (1), (2), (3), (3A), and (4) of the BNA 1981.

1. I was born in 1976 in a foreign country (USA).

2. I was born during the period of consular birth registrations for foreign births (Section 5(1)(b) of the BNA 1948).

3. My maternal grandmother was born in the United Kingdom in the meaning used in the BNA 1981 (birth within the United Kingdom and Islands – specifically England).

4. My mother, born in a foreign country (USA) in 1955, could have been a British citizen by descent if not for historical legislative unfairness/gender discrimination. Specifically, if not for gender discrimination she could have been a British citizen by descent because her mother (my maternal grandmother) was a British citizen born in England in 1923 (Section 5(1) of the BNA 1948).

5. If not for historical legislative unfairness/gender discrimination (Section 5(1)(b) of the 1948 Act), my mother could have registered my birth with the UK consulate making me a British citizen by descent when I was born in 1976; Section 4C(3D) of the BNA 1981 specifies that the requirement of consular birth registration in Section 5(1)(b) of the 1948 Act “is to be ignored.

6. I would have had the right of abode under the test set out in section 4C(4) of the BNA 1981 because:
  • my maternal grandmother was born in the United Kingdom (England) (Immigration Act of 1971 section 2(1)(b)(ii))
  • if not for historical legislative unfairness/gender discrimination (Section 5(1) of the 1948 Act), my mother could have been a CUKC by descent through her mother and would have been a CUKC by descent at my birth in 1976 (Immigration Act of 1971 section 2(1)(b)).
  • if not for historical legislative unfairness/gender discrimination (Section 5(1)(b) of the 1948 Act), my mother could have registered by birth with the UK consulate making me a CUKC by descent when I was born in 1976; Section 4C(3D) of the BNA 1981 specifies that the requirement of consular birth registration in Section 5(1)(b) of the 1948 Act “is to be ignored.”
  • if not for historical legislative unfairness/gender discrimination (Section 5(1)(b) of the 1948 Act), I would have been a CUKC by descent in 1976, born to a CUKC by descent (mother), who was born to a CUKC (maternal grandmother) and I would have had right of abode immediately before 1st January 1983.
have you heard back on your application?
Tlk1677 is offline  
Old Sep 13th 2023, 10:44 am
  #163  
Just Joined
 
Joined: Sep 2023
Location: US
Posts: 12
thepollyannasociety is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)

Thank you to everyone for all of your great posts on this topic! I have my Form ARD ready to send, but I'm still super nervous that I'm not reading the laws correctly and want to run it by you.
  • My g-grandma born in England in 1896 (British Subj).
  • Family immigrated to the US in 1904.
  • She and her parents never naturalized as Americans.
  • She married an American in the US in 1917.
  • Her daughter, my grandma, born in the US in 1921.
  • My mom born in the US in 1951.
  • Me: born in the US in 1969.
I get that this is one generation more than is usually discussed, which is where I'm worried. But, as I read it, my GG and Grandma would have both been considered "natural-born British Subjects" under the BNSAA 1914 (if not for gender discrimination in the law). Additionally, it also looks to me like under the BNA 1948 (law of the times of our births) grandma, mom, and I could have all been registered if not for gender inequality in the law, anyway, since I don't see a limit on generational registration before 1981.

Is this correct? Or do I save my $1,500?

Thank you!

thepollyannasociety is offline  
Old Sep 13th 2023, 10:53 am
  #164  
Forum Regular
 
Joined: Oct 2022
Posts: 64
Glassybell is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)

Originally Posted by thepollyannasociety
Thank you to everyone for all of your great posts on this topic! I have my Form ARD ready to send, but I'm still super nervous that I'm not reading the laws correctly and want to run it by you.
  • My g-grandma born in England in 1896 (British Subj).
  • Family immigrated to the US in 1904.
  • She and her parents never naturalized as Americans.
  • She married an American in the US in 1917.
  • Her daughter, my grandma, born in the US in 1921.
  • My mom born in the US in 1951.
  • Me: born in the US in 1969.
I get that this is one generation more than is usually discussed, which is where I'm worried. But, as I read it, my GG and Grandma would have both been considered "natural-born British Subjects" under the BNSAA 1914 (if not for gender discrimination in the law). Additionally, it also looks to me like under the BNA 1948 (law of the times of our births) grandma, mom, and I could have all been registered if not for gender inequality in the law, anyway, since I don't see a limit on generational registration before 1981.

Is this correct? Or do I save my $1,500?

Thank you!
I don't know if it would matter to the UK, but in 1917 your g-grandmother should have become a US citizen when she married and I don't think either country allowed dual citizenship at that point. https://www.archives.gov/publication...ization-1.html

If you are eligible to register in this way, it should only be the ceremony fee though, I think.
Glassybell is offline  
Old Sep 13th 2023, 11:14 am
  #165  
Just Joined
 
Joined: Sep 2023
Location: US
Posts: 12
thepollyannasociety is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)

Thank you Glassybell! I was assuming (which maybe I shouldn't) that the fact that she lost her citizenship and wouldn't have if she had been male, was part of the gender discrimination aspect. Yikes! Maybe I'm not allowed to apply. I appreciate your help.
thepollyannasociety is offline  

Contact Us - Manage Preferences - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.