Sue Ottawa?
Oct 23rd 2003, 1:35 pm
#1
Loving it here!
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2003
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 1,198
Sue Ottawa?
Article from the Edmonton Journal ... 
Immigrants sue Ottawa, citing 'shattered lives'
Landmark lawsuit says gov't misled them on job picture
Jessica Leeder
The Edmonton Journal
Wednesday, October 22, 2003
By trade, Selladurai Premakumaran is a professional number cruncher.
Since he immigrated to Canada in 1998, he's done nothing but calculations. Mostly, the U.K.-schooled accountant has been trying to figure out how to recover the $60,000 it cost his family to relocate, how to pay off a $100,000 credit-card debt, why his two professional degrees can't get him a job and how a growing family of six can survive in a two-bedroom apartment.
The courts, he hopes, will have his answer.
Premakumaran -- Prem -- and his wife Nesamalar have launched a $225,000 lawsuit against the federal government, alleging they were misled by Canadian immigration officials who assured them they'd have no trouble finding professional jobs to support their family in Canada.
The lawsuit is likely one of the first of its kind, says a University of Toronto law professor.
The couple -- Prem is a native of Sri Lanka and Nesa is from Malaysia -- spent 22 years in Britain before learning that their fluency in English, along with their education and professional credentials, made them eligible to live and work in Canada.
But since their arrival, neither Prem, a former accountant and lecturer, nor his wife, a former bookkeeper, has been able to use their training. The formerly middle-class family has been forced to clean toilets, shovel snow and borrow money from their 15-year-old son to pay the bills.
"When we were thinking of coming to Canada they said they wanted professional immigrants to help build up your economy," he said in an interview in the family's $700-a-month basement apartment in a dingy neighbourhood in west Edmonton. "But we are wasting our time.
"What angers me is we are capable people," he said. "We have the credentials. But we can't get jobs.
"We can't give anything to our kids. What (the federal government) has done is shattered our hope and our life. They have to compensate us somehow."
In his statement of claim, Prem alleges the government owes him for "mental agony, financial loss ... loss of jobs and thereby loss of earnings for the past four years."
He is also suing for health problems he says he and his wife have incurred as a result of their lives in Canada, including irritable skin conditions, high blood pressure and sleeping difficulties.
When they first arrived, Prem spent nine months looking for a job in Toronto. "They said I needed Canadian work experience. To me, if you work in accounting in the U.K., you can do it here."
Eventually, Prem moved to Edmonton in hopes he would have more luck finding work. Out of desperation, he began stocking shelves at Wal-Mart, then later found a job shovelling snow.
Subsequent jobs at Zellers, a cleaning firm, a hotel and a stint on employment insurance have helped the couple get by, but like many others in similar situations, they became quickly demoralized.
"This scenario is very common," said Audrey Macklin, a professor of law at the University of Toronto.
"People are encouraged as immigrants to come to Canada on the strength of their education, experience and job skills. Then they get here and find that these skills have no value to those who would actually employ them."
"Brainwaste" is the term Macklin uses to describe the trend.
"We skim the cream off the top of other countries to get the best we can and we do very little to ensure their skills are put to good use in Canada," she said. "We end up with the most overqualified cab drivers, pizza deliverymen and caretakers in the world."
Susan Scarlett, a spokeswoman for the Department of Citizenship and Immigration, declined to comment on the lawsuit, which is not scheduled to go to court until 2005. The couple are representing themselves.
"Guarantees are just not generally made with regards to how successful someone will be when they come to Canada," said Peter Carver, a law professor at the University of Alberta.
According to Jane Cullingworth, project co-ordinator of PROMPT, an Ontario-based network of professional immigrant lobbyists, immigrants' expectations for their new lives in Canada are often misguided.
"Canada is represented as a very good society where you can make a good living," Cullingworth said.
"But there really isn't any national strategy that is specifically dedicated to helping skilled immigrants get into the labour market."
Last year, more than half of the 229,058 immigrants admitted into Canada were professional and skilled workers. Of those, more than 77,000 had university degrees, including 17,000 with master's degrees and 3,000 with doctorates.
"A lot of professional people have a hard time finding good positions here," said Maria Jagiello, director of community services at Edmonton's Mennonite Centre for Newcomers.
"It often involves many years of upgrading and passing exams all over again," she said.
Nesa says finding work is a constant, uphill battle.
"In my culture a nose stud shows prosperity," she says, fingering the gold ball on her right nostril. Interviewers often ask her to remove it.
"I'm surprised that in a country that calls itself multicultural I'm asked to alter my cultural symbols to get a job."
Immigrants sue Ottawa, citing 'shattered lives'
Landmark lawsuit says gov't misled them on job picture
Jessica Leeder
The Edmonton Journal
Wednesday, October 22, 2003
By trade, Selladurai Premakumaran is a professional number cruncher.
Since he immigrated to Canada in 1998, he's done nothing but calculations. Mostly, the U.K.-schooled accountant has been trying to figure out how to recover the $60,000 it cost his family to relocate, how to pay off a $100,000 credit-card debt, why his two professional degrees can't get him a job and how a growing family of six can survive in a two-bedroom apartment.
The courts, he hopes, will have his answer.
Premakumaran -- Prem -- and his wife Nesamalar have launched a $225,000 lawsuit against the federal government, alleging they were misled by Canadian immigration officials who assured them they'd have no trouble finding professional jobs to support their family in Canada.
The lawsuit is likely one of the first of its kind, says a University of Toronto law professor.
The couple -- Prem is a native of Sri Lanka and Nesa is from Malaysia -- spent 22 years in Britain before learning that their fluency in English, along with their education and professional credentials, made them eligible to live and work in Canada.
But since their arrival, neither Prem, a former accountant and lecturer, nor his wife, a former bookkeeper, has been able to use their training. The formerly middle-class family has been forced to clean toilets, shovel snow and borrow money from their 15-year-old son to pay the bills.
"When we were thinking of coming to Canada they said they wanted professional immigrants to help build up your economy," he said in an interview in the family's $700-a-month basement apartment in a dingy neighbourhood in west Edmonton. "But we are wasting our time.
"What angers me is we are capable people," he said. "We have the credentials. But we can't get jobs.
"We can't give anything to our kids. What (the federal government) has done is shattered our hope and our life. They have to compensate us somehow."
In his statement of claim, Prem alleges the government owes him for "mental agony, financial loss ... loss of jobs and thereby loss of earnings for the past four years."
He is also suing for health problems he says he and his wife have incurred as a result of their lives in Canada, including irritable skin conditions, high blood pressure and sleeping difficulties.
When they first arrived, Prem spent nine months looking for a job in Toronto. "They said I needed Canadian work experience. To me, if you work in accounting in the U.K., you can do it here."
Eventually, Prem moved to Edmonton in hopes he would have more luck finding work. Out of desperation, he began stocking shelves at Wal-Mart, then later found a job shovelling snow.
Subsequent jobs at Zellers, a cleaning firm, a hotel and a stint on employment insurance have helped the couple get by, but like many others in similar situations, they became quickly demoralized.
"This scenario is very common," said Audrey Macklin, a professor of law at the University of Toronto.
"People are encouraged as immigrants to come to Canada on the strength of their education, experience and job skills. Then they get here and find that these skills have no value to those who would actually employ them."
"Brainwaste" is the term Macklin uses to describe the trend.
"We skim the cream off the top of other countries to get the best we can and we do very little to ensure their skills are put to good use in Canada," she said. "We end up with the most overqualified cab drivers, pizza deliverymen and caretakers in the world."
Susan Scarlett, a spokeswoman for the Department of Citizenship and Immigration, declined to comment on the lawsuit, which is not scheduled to go to court until 2005. The couple are representing themselves.
"Guarantees are just not generally made with regards to how successful someone will be when they come to Canada," said Peter Carver, a law professor at the University of Alberta.
According to Jane Cullingworth, project co-ordinator of PROMPT, an Ontario-based network of professional immigrant lobbyists, immigrants' expectations for their new lives in Canada are often misguided.
"Canada is represented as a very good society where you can make a good living," Cullingworth said.
"But there really isn't any national strategy that is specifically dedicated to helping skilled immigrants get into the labour market."
Last year, more than half of the 229,058 immigrants admitted into Canada were professional and skilled workers. Of those, more than 77,000 had university degrees, including 17,000 with master's degrees and 3,000 with doctorates.
"A lot of professional people have a hard time finding good positions here," said Maria Jagiello, director of community services at Edmonton's Mennonite Centre for Newcomers.
"It often involves many years of upgrading and passing exams all over again," she said.
Nesa says finding work is a constant, uphill battle.
"In my culture a nose stud shows prosperity," she says, fingering the gold ball on her right nostril. Interviewers often ask her to remove it.
"I'm surprised that in a country that calls itself multicultural I'm asked to alter my cultural symbols to get a job."
Oct 23rd 2003, 1:48 pm
#2
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 3,015
That is a very interesting article. Its about time that somebody took a stand. After all what do the immigration officials care if they guarantee something that they can't guarantee?
Oct 23rd 2003, 3:45 pm
#3
Loving it here!
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2003
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 1,198
Originally posted by lizwil98
That is a very interesting article. Its about time that somebody took a stand. After all what do the immigration officials care if they guarantee something that they can't guarantee?
That is a very interesting article. Its about time that somebody took a stand. After all what do the immigration officials care if they guarantee something that they can't guarantee?
The thing is - we have no guarantees, just our optimism (and life savings ......)
Clare
Oct 23rd 2003, 6:31 pm
#4
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 3,015
So are you saying that when people emigrate to Canada they take their chances? Or do you think that the people at CIC encourage people to come to Canada when they know full well they will have trouble finding a job?
I suppose the bottom line is that every time a person applies for a job they think they are the perfect person for it - but only one person gets the job.
I don't know how the people are at CIC - do you think these people have a valid case?
I came to Canada 35 years ago and I had no trouble getting a job and neither did my husband. However, from the posts that I read on this forum it seems like its a lot harder nowadays - that Canadian companies insist on Canadian qualifications - even though accounting experience in England you would think would be pretty similar to Canada - they wont accept their qualifications.
If this is the case then do the Immigration people tell prospective emigrants that their qualifications in another may be worth nothing in Canada?
I suppose the bottom line is that every time a person applies for a job they think they are the perfect person for it - but only one person gets the job.
I don't know how the people are at CIC - do you think these people have a valid case?
I came to Canada 35 years ago and I had no trouble getting a job and neither did my husband. However, from the posts that I read on this forum it seems like its a lot harder nowadays - that Canadian companies insist on Canadian qualifications - even though accounting experience in England you would think would be pretty similar to Canada - they wont accept their qualifications.
If this is the case then do the Immigration people tell prospective emigrants that their qualifications in another may be worth nothing in Canada?
Oct 23rd 2003, 8:41 pm
#5
Banned
Joined: Aug 2003
Location: I refuse to answer on the grounds it may incriminate me
Posts: 4,513
I wouldnt doubt that the immigration official may have said that these peoples qualifications would get them work but I dont think for one moment that they will win their court case.
It is your own responsibility to research your chances of employment in a country you want to move to. It doesnt take a genious to know that its individual employers that make hiring decisions, not the government !
The immigration official was most likely asked about employment and gave his thoughts on it. This couple would be better off trying to sue the likes of the interviewers that they claim told the female to remove the ring from her nose.
It is your own responsibility to research your chances of employment in a country you want to move to. It doesnt take a genious to know that its individual employers that make hiring decisions, not the government !
The immigration official was most likely asked about employment and gave his thoughts on it. This couple would be better off trying to sue the likes of the interviewers that they claim told the female to remove the ring from her nose.
Oct 23rd 2003, 10:43 pm
#6
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 481
It seems harder to get a decent job in Canada but this seems to be the case for all Canadians, which would make it especially hard for immigrants as you would expect (I'm not saying this is wrong).
I think the problem is that they are asking for highly skilled workers and then you come over and end up having to start at the bottom again, your skills count for nothing. Had we realised this before, we might not have come to Canada in the first place.
It seems silly to ask for highly skilled workers when there aren't the jobs for them. Surely immigration must realise that someone highly skilled, Canadian or not, is not going to like starting at the bottom again.
I think the problem is that they are asking for highly skilled workers and then you come over and end up having to start at the bottom again, your skills count for nothing. Had we realised this before, we might not have come to Canada in the first place.
It seems silly to ask for highly skilled workers when there aren't the jobs for them. Surely immigration must realise that someone highly skilled, Canadian or not, is not going to like starting at the bottom again.
Oct 23rd 2003, 10:54 pm
#7
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 481
Just to clarify, maybe its only Canadians in Nova Scotia (and similar poorer provinces) that have a problem getting a decent job.
Oct 24th 2003, 12:05 am
#8
Banned
Joined: Aug 2003
Location: I refuse to answer on the grounds it may incriminate me
Posts: 4,513
I would make the suggestion to anyone who wants to leave the UK for Canada or indeed any other country, under the skilled worker criteria that you get an offer of work from the employer and even consider asking that employer to sponsor you.
If you choose to take your chances on gaining employment, you cant blame the government.
Back in the 70's Canadian companies actively sought skilled workers from countries including the UK. They hired thousands and sponsored them, in some cases paying for all the paperwork, moving expenses etc. Im not sure that this is common today.
I remember a story in the 80's when I was living in Toronto about a guy who (in his own country) delivererd babies as a doctor but the closest work he could get in Toronto was delivering pizzas. To be honest I dont have sympathy for anyone who doesnt do some simple checking before moving to another country. Things like the sort of exams or re-training you may have to do in order to work at your profession etc. It seems by far the most prudent of actions before such a big move.
Luke (Neil NSW Australia)
If you choose to take your chances on gaining employment, you cant blame the government.
Back in the 70's Canadian companies actively sought skilled workers from countries including the UK. They hired thousands and sponsored them, in some cases paying for all the paperwork, moving expenses etc. Im not sure that this is common today.
I remember a story in the 80's when I was living in Toronto about a guy who (in his own country) delivererd babies as a doctor but the closest work he could get in Toronto was delivering pizzas. To be honest I dont have sympathy for anyone who doesnt do some simple checking before moving to another country. Things like the sort of exams or re-training you may have to do in order to work at your profession etc. It seems by far the most prudent of actions before such a big move.
Luke (Neil NSW Australia)
Oct 24th 2003, 8:41 pm
#9
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 558
I have sympathy for the family. The article is right, why does CIC take the 'best' educated and skilled workers from other countries ? Why not just let in Cleaners, Taxi drivers and pizza delivery boys ?
I think Canada needs to sort this issue out. It needs some kind of system where it recognises other countries qualifications.
It would be a shame if people were put off coming here. After all the Canadian born population is in decline and with the Baby boom generation getting older, they desperately need immigrants. Imagine all those old people out of work and not enough of a working population to support them. The whole economy would collapse.
Int.
I think Canada needs to sort this issue out. It needs some kind of system where it recognises other countries qualifications.
It would be a shame if people were put off coming here. After all the Canadian born population is in decline and with the Baby boom generation getting older, they desperately need immigrants. Imagine all those old people out of work and not enough of a working population to support them. The whole economy would collapse.
Int.
Oct 25th 2003, 3:39 am
#10
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2003
Location: UK-Switz-US-Canada-Ireland
Posts: 625
I'm a part qualified Accountant and have already researched the fact that I may find trouble finding work at the level I was at before - for this reason I budgeted my future income to be low and also expect to register at a temping agency to start with, maybe even doing data entry work or something. Doing that would get the Canadian experience going and a permanent job may come later. I am very surprised that these Accountants didn't do their figures to start with. Yes, they may have been misled but in accountacy training one of the main rules is to use prudency - ie assume income at the lowest level until proven otherwise but expect costs to be high. This is also a reason why immigrants without a job offer are asked to bring 6 months worth of funds across - it was made clear to me studying the application papers that this 6 months worth of funds was specifically as a fall back in case work couldn't be found straight away.
My question is - if these guys have no money, how on earth are they gonna pay the court costs of they lose?
My question is - if these guys have no money, how on earth are they gonna pay the court costs of they lose?
Oct 25th 2003, 7:59 am
#11
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Sep 2003
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,152
Surely people need to take responsibility for their own actions. If anyone chooses to try living in another country it doesn't matter what encouragement they receive it is still down to them to be realistic and see that there are risks and that it might all go horribly wrong.
Sadly there are too many people that think they are owed something in this life and then if it doesn't happen they look to blame someone else. Immigration is a massive decision and move to make and everyone that tries it has to recognise the risk involved especially if they are giving up a good standard of living elsewhere.
Sadly there are too many people that think they are owed something in this life and then if it doesn't happen they look to blame someone else. Immigration is a massive decision and move to make and everyone that tries it has to recognise the risk involved especially if they are giving up a good standard of living elsewhere.
Oct 25th 2003, 2:18 pm
#12
Forum Regular
Joined: Sep 2003
Location: Burlington, Ontario
Posts: 70
THe point is not whinging about not being able to get a job but that, if the Canadian government is so proactive in taking in highly qualified people you would expect there to be a job available somewhere and at a similar level (not necessarily salary) as you were used to.
I was fortunate to have two job offers before I came out and my employer had to obtain HRDC (job centre) approval to make me an offer and sponsor me to come over.
If the jobs are not there, why demand skilled workers? As Interested says, let cleaners do cleaners jobs, not rocket scientists etc. The only reason I was even looked at was because my employer couldn't find a suitable canadian after 9 months of trying. (Not that Canadians shouldn't get first chance, they should!).
I was fortunate to have two job offers before I came out and my employer had to obtain HRDC (job centre) approval to make me an offer and sponsor me to come over.
If the jobs are not there, why demand skilled workers? As Interested says, let cleaners do cleaners jobs, not rocket scientists etc. The only reason I was even looked at was because my employer couldn't find a suitable canadian after 9 months of trying. (Not that Canadians shouldn't get first chance, they should!).
Oct 26th 2003, 12:28 pm
#13
Guest
Posts: n/a
Sue Ottawa?
I don't wanna appear harsh, but I'm sure we all realise on making the move to Canada that there are no guarantees of success and a lot of hard work ahead of us.
You can't blame Canada as a country for trying to ensure it's workforce is as highly skilled as possible and to hold the government liable for being unable to get a job is utterly ridiculous!
I am sorry this couple have had such problems making their move a success but I don't see that they have a 'cat in hell's chance' of getting anywhere with their case.
This thread is too depressing anyway.
You can't blame Canada as a country for trying to ensure it's workforce is as highly skilled as possible and to hold the government liable for being unable to get a job is utterly ridiculous!
I am sorry this couple have had such problems making their move a success but I don't see that they have a 'cat in hell's chance' of getting anywhere with their case.
This thread is too depressing anyway.
Oct 26th 2003, 7:37 pm
#14
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2003
Location: UK-Switz-US-Canada-Ireland
Posts: 625
Interestingly enough, I have been assuming that I would have problems finding work in Canada - what I wasn't prepared for was finding trouble getting work at my level back in the UK. Let me explain a bit! From July 2002 to July 2003 I returned to England to work to help us save up our funds for moving to Canada (I'm on a H4 visa in the US so not allowed to work here). I anticipated getting work within a couple of weeks at accountancy level and in fact it took 2 months to find something as a data entry clerk at a much lower salary then I expected. Why? No it wasn't because I wasn't trying harder enough, I had registered with umpteen agencies and applied for jobs myself - no the reason was because for the last 4 years I have been abroad and out of work and hence have no up to date references or work experience. That was a hell of a shock but I bit my tongue and took other office work instead. This I guess shows several things - 1. the UK is just as bad for not employing people if they think you are not 'exactly right' due to your circumstances with being abroad. 2. I was still able to get office work at least and let's face it - Accountants work in an office so I'm sure this couple could have done clerical or computer input work for a while and then work up once the employer knows how well they work, and have gained Canadian experience and 3. be careful - if you do go abroad and can't find work, be prepared to take a drop in pay when you return to the UK. Now others may not have the same experience as me, as I was out of work for 4 years and generally, a gap of 6 months to a year shouldn't cause as much damage.
At the end of the day - if people have enough funds and are prepared to be flexible then the future is in your hands!
Another point I wanted to make - sorry, I'm boring you now!! Maybe, if this case did go through some good may come of it. For instance the Canadian government may ask employers to consider previous work experience and qualifications so that people aren't being turned away from job interviews because of their overseas credentials - it may work, who knows!
At the end of the day - if people have enough funds and are prepared to be flexible then the future is in your hands!
Another point I wanted to make - sorry, I'm boring you now!! Maybe, if this case did go through some good may come of it. For instance the Canadian government may ask employers to consider previous work experience and qualifications so that people aren't being turned away from job interviews because of their overseas credentials - it may work, who knows!
