Second Class Citizen
 

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

My Wife is British / Filipino and she feels what you described 100%. I am a white man with a British accent, and I have never felt this while living in Kamloops, BC.

As soon as we go to Vancouver the opposite happens. By this I mean people struggle to understand me and they have to call in their co-workers to help translate my request for a glass of walter, to a glass of a wadder. I feel like the Indian lady from the weight watchers skit on Little Britain !!

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

Nope - never happened to me. My experience has been nothing but 100% welcoming. I don't even think about being "British" any more. I don't think anyone else does either. I remember when we first moved to Canada, for the first few months checkout peeps or whatever would often comment on my accent and ask "where are you from?" or "are you visiting?". Now, that never happens, despite having exactly the same BBC accent I've always had. So in some sense I must have changed something. I think it has more to do with sentence structure than accent; not sure. All I know is I feel totally included in our community.

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

I ran into some issues kind of like what you described when I first moved to Vancouver, mainly because I was still speaking using british-english style language, often mentioning the UK in comparison, and things like that. It tended to make the other person confused or feel alienated, so it was harder to connect. Eventually my accent started to soften, I started using Canadian/North American words and phrases, and people seemed to "stop hearing" my accent and just heard what I have to say. I think describing those initial issues as "second class citizen" is an exaggeration though.

That being said I think Vancouver is much more accepting of different accents than other places I've been to, as nobody has ever really commented much on my accent unless it comes up later in conversation. When I visited my friend in Chicago several years ago, everyone always commented on my accent as soon as I spoke to the point it actually was kind of distracting. My (Canadian) wife ran into the same thing when we visited my parents in a small town in the UK, people assumed she was a tourist when they heard her Canadian accent - while it was true, if she actually lived there I could imagine that being a bit annoying.

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

I blend in easily and sound mostly like a native born BC resident so unless I say certain things like the letter Zee or call pop soda, I largely blend in where people simply think I am Canadian.

Depending on who I am around if it gets out I am from the US there have been some issues, but largely people simply ask me why I moved to Vancouver from sunny So, California with a slightly confused look on their face.

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

At least for rural BC I'd have to say it's to such a degree not the case that multiple people have suggested to me that 'you're not really an immigrant, though, are you...' - wish I'd known as it'd have saved me a lot of money! A number of the people I work with are from the Philippines and they definitely get a bit more...skepticism? from time to time. Interestingly the 'Indians' in Golden don't as a lot of the families have been here since the early 1900s, ie far longer than most of the other 'locals', & are quite happy to give anyone giving them any guff a bit of an earful about it.

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

:lol:
I expect people to ask me why I moved to Moncton from Montreal. But they never do.

I once read a tourist book for Canada that said Canadians consider Paris to be the Montreal of France. Maybe New Brunswickers similarly consider Montreal to be the Moncton of Quebec. :rofl:

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

Hi there Engineer_abroad. I'm glad you haven't had the same perception that I have. I'm not an engineer but I imagine there are similarities in our jobs (I'm in healthcare) in terms of hierarchy etc. I perhaps ought to clarify - in day to day life I'm not conscious of feeling like an outsider but at work I am very much expected to tow the line. I have seen openly different treatment of my peers compared to myself at the hands of my seniors on countless occasions to the point where, sadly, I think if I really want to get anywhere in my career I'm going to have to relocate.

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

Yes. Institutional racism exists in Canada.

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

I've never experienced anything like this.

However, I could see where it might happen, especially if you haven't changed much ............

a) in the words you use. That does not mean your accent, it does mean saying trunk instead of boot, elevator instead of lift, etc etc

b) Extend a) to your job, and continue using the English words or descriptors

b) you constantly make comparisons back to the UK


I worked at a university, and occasionally my boss and I would read out loud to each other the Latin names of plants and animals .............. it was a form of proofreading. I never quite got the Canadian pronunciation of some words, but we would end up giggling after a while. He never made me feel that I was second-class .......... maybe because I'd already experienced similar different pronunciations between people from different universities or different parts of the UK.


I felt more of a second-class citizen back in the UK in the 1960s, as a Northerner being interviewed in the South.

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

But you need not be blind to it. Cradle Canadians are rare around here. I suppose 20% of the people in the building (a couple of thousand people total) might be white, born in Canada, Canadians. All of the executives are. Almost of the police and judiciary are. Almost all of the members of the government at all levels are. Immigrants don't suffer the kind of discrimination that the aboriginal people in empty Provinces do; we're not in camps or in jail, but there are certain establishment positions for which membership of the bumiputera is a major qualifier.

Note that I'm not taking a position, if the Canadians think it appropriate to operate an apartheid system that's up to them, it's not our place to judge but to leave if we're not comfortable with it.

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

While discrimination exists in Canada, Canada is still one of the most tolerant countries in the world when it comes to this issue. However, what I disagree with the most here is your suggestion that the only response to "leave" and that "it's not our place to judge". I hold a Canadian passport and am a Canadian citizen, as such I have the right to call out racism when I see it, even though I was not born here. We are allowed to be politically active. We can all do our part to stomp out intolerance, even as immigrants.

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

I suppose one may elect to meddle in Canadian affairs, or Australian affairs for that matter. I just don't think it's our place to do so. Colonialism has been rather a scourge on the world and we might do better to leave foreigners to their own devices.

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

Hear hear! Positive change comes from this attitude. Experiences vary naturally from area to area, situation to situation, and person to person.

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

I think you had better take a better look at the Federal Government ........... I see a lot of non-white and even immigrant faces in Trudeau's Cabinet, and quite a few more sitting in the chamber, with many more being the children of immigrants ......... except in the Conservative party.

I wonder why that is????

For heavens sake, all Canadians EXCEPT the First Nations are descended from immigrants, just as all British are "mongrels" as any who has studied genealogy can tell you!

I'm sorry, but I think a lot of white UK immigrants have brought it on themselves ............... we met a lot in our early days who thought they were entitled "just because they were born in Britain".

I've seen statements on here from people that they "expected" it to be easy to immigrate into Canada because "they were born British".

Many complain bitterly about the vacation time, because "they" got so much in the UK.

Does that sound familiar??

Don't you think it could grate on Canadians, even naturalized Canadians like myself, to continually hear complaints "because I'm British and I'm entitled"????????

Even your use of the term "cradle Canadians" is offensive to me!

It denigrates those born here, even people like my daughter born of immigrant parents.

I'm proud to be a Canadian, Canada has been very good to us.

I'm thankful to England for my education which I could not have afforded without the generous financial backing that was then available. But I paid my debt back to them, and am grateful to not live there now.

And yes, like so many others I also had a problem finding a job that I liked and enjoyed when we first came, but I found one after 9 months, and the fact that I ONLY got 2 weeks vacation a year, that I could only take after working there for 1 year, meant nothing ........... I am brutally honest with that statement.

It was what happened here, I knew that if I stayed in the job that I would eventually get more, which is what happened as I gradually worked my way up to 6 weeks vacation a year plus I had the opportunity to work overtime and get more vacation time in lieu of overtime pay.

What did I do with in the 9 months when I couldn't find a job that I liked? I volunteered with a non-profit group. It didn't do anything to help me find a job but it occupied my time!

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

I wish that one could change "we are allowed to be politically active" to "we are EXPECTED to be politically active".

It IS our place to judge racism, and intolerance, and to take action when we see it.

There is no bar to being politically active, or to attend demonstrations, or to complain about racism and intolerance just because you are an immigrant. Many of the people who are currently demonstrating in Vancouver against what is going on in Hong Kong are immigrants ......... from Hong Kong and from other parts of the world.

This is the land of free speech, and democratic action, and of tolerance.

I became a Canadian citizen so that I could actively participate in the political system by voting in all elections.

I carry a Canadian passport and refuse to carry a British passport because I consider that this is MY country now. I left England a long time ago, and have no right to participate in political debates there because I just do not know enough about the background.

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

Well quite, if we want to demonstrate against Brexit it's fitting that we do so. Just not the internal affairs here.

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

Omg, are you my husband? He would say pretty much the same and in large parts I have to agree.

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

Well, of course you can flippin' well demonstrate against things happening in Canada! What the heck makes you think that you cannot.

You can demonstrate for or against the TransMountain pipeline.

You could have demonstrated for and against Canadian servicemen and women being sent to Afghanistan.

You can demonstrate for or against Canada contracting with Huawei, or for or against Meng Wanzhou being held under the extradition treaty with the US.

As long as you demonstrate PEACEFULLY, and that means no violence or getting arrested for demonstrating if you do not have citizenship, then you can demonstrate.

The same rules apply in the UK so I believe.


I sometimes think you operate in a completely different universe from the one in which I, my friends, relations and contacts live!

I know immigrants who are heads of business, men and women (!!!!!) of colour who are partners in companies.

I worked with Canadians both born and naturalized, as well as PRs and immigrants from other countries.

Our best friends range from Canadian born and naturalized to American, South African and Australian.

In the political world ...........

the Finance Minister of BC is part Metis, and is married to a First Nations man.

The Minister of Advanced Education in BC is a First nations woman.

Trudeau has an Afghan immigrant (woman!!) in his cabinet, several from the continent of India

I could go on and on ..............

yet you constantly talk about your little world which has immigrants because, I gather, they are the ones who have the abilities that you need at any one particular time. AND you talk as if Canada was anything but a tolerant, democratic country that believes in free speech.

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

I agree, I've experienced the same and even had some pretty disgusting comments from friends who couldn't see anything wrong with what they were saying.

A lot of friends and acquaintances were very vocal about how much "Canadian money" was being spent on my treatment when I fell ill, amd since I've recovered, about how that money could have been spent on Canadians, many of them told my husband and I that I shouldn't have been treated, despite knowing that I would have died otherwise.

Its very hurtful, more so when its said at BBQs and the like, casually in front of our young child who can't understand why Mommy's friends didn't think she was worth the cash to save her life. From people I thought were very close friends. Surely even if you thought it you wouldn't have the gall to say it?

I think Canada does talk a good game, and I think the laws and regulations protecting people against discrimination go further than most countries, but that's very different to the actual people holding the mindset to uphold those laws and challenge discrimination.

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

It's not that, just that almost everyone here is an immigrant and I don't have any reason to seek out actual Canadians. If I see someone driving a truck while wearing a hat I assume them to be Canadian but I don't know that, they could be Americans.

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

Totally agree. Both my wife and I have had this feeling especially in our work places and our daughter in sport. We are just on the out skirts of Victoria and have heard the same issues from many other people including Canadians from back east. We have got to the point we are done with Canada and heading back to the UK as soon as our son finishes High School to retire. Both of us work in Crown Corporations and have been stunned how Canadians game the system and get away with it while others dont. The same people seem to get a bout of 'stress' every summer which requires them to go sick until the Fall when the miracously recover. I have seen people get promoted who dont have any relevant qualifications and have to be spoon fed to carry their job. The errors they make is commical if not sad to the point they waste huge amoiunts of money and put peoples lives at risk. For someone who has said they never experienced this must live very sheltered lives as just about everything here is based on who you are and where you are from. There is an extreme sense of entitlement of many who grew up here. We have been in BC 13 years and really enjoyed the first seven living in the Lower Mainland. We lived in a great community and had many friends which we still keep in touch with today. It was the move to Vancouver Island which really opened our eyes. Other than work colleagues we have made very few friends. People dont seem to want to socialise and we bearly speak to our neighbours despite living here for 6 years. We asked ourselves what is so different here than the LM where we had such a good time. It seems most of our friends in the LM came from somehwere else in the world and were not local. Moving to VI was our real first immersment in 'white' Canadians and we have been shocked, everyone seems to know everyone else or has family connections here. If you were not born here you dont stand much of a chance. I know many people who have moved away from here for the same reason including Canadians from elsewhere. I find people from other parts of Canada to be more friendly, better qualified and easier to get along with than locals. People can be extremely rude and very unpleasant in the work place. Just watching them drive around Victoria is a giggle. Bullying is a major issue in the work place and I am stunned with what some people can get away with. Its always been amazing to me that many who get promoted come from the smaller communities of BC and the people which hire them seem to come from the same place. I have never ever witnessed as much corruption as I have seen here. The hypocracy and political correctness drives us nuts. They claim to be green and are totally destroying the place! There is no forward planning and when one of my colleagues went to visit the local mayor to find out what his 5 year plan for the municpality was he said he didnt have one and lets his developer pals do what they like - strange they same people are just being taken to court for ignoring building regulations. Having said all of that there is the exceptions and there are some good people around but for us we are done with BC and cant wait to leave. All in all we are very dissapointed with VI, it is like living in the 19th century. We have thought about moving to other parts of Canada to retire but we think we will be better off moving back to the UK.

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

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Re: Second Class Citizen
 

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

:lol:

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

I think this will greatly depend on where you live. I found bigger cities to be more open-minded about immigrants. Canada has a lot to offer but it's not perfect. Nowhere is. I have had good and bad experiences. I do see more hypocrisy among people here (similar to the US) than in Europe but again it could just be my little world.

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

We dont move in any circles with people here and you live in Mill Bay (one of my crew lives there and he has had a terrible time with his neighbours and he's Canadian) which is a large difference to where we live on Bear Mountain. Everything around here is tied to the Mayor and his buddies - I never knew what a thiefdom was until I moved here. If you are not in that circle you dont stand a chance. I have heard and witnessed many horror stories with what goes on here. Check out the local election stats for Langford - 26000 eligible voters and the Mayor gets in unapposed with 3500 (probably most of his employees) and the councillors around 2000 votes. There is never anyone else to vote for. These people are well known in this area for what they are. Nothing more than white trash or below. They have mutilated this place for the benefit of themselves and their friends. They pride themselves with not following rules like any civilised society would its like living in the 19th century.
Victoria is not much better although we do like the Saanich are towards Sydney. We have tried to sell and move there a couple of times as we cannot stand Langford. Yes, the delightful place where the Premier lives! My Canadian neighbour refers to the place as mutant city. I met with a RCMP officer in Langford the other day following a break in to my sub. He had only just moved here from Kelowna and the first thing he said was he regretted moving here becuase of the Municipality.
We tend to spend a lot of time with our friends in the LM or stay in hotels in Victoria every now and again.
I manage all the electrical substations in the area and my stations never used to have any break-ins until the past year. Now it happens almost every week and its getting worse. Drugs and discarded needles everywhere. We have a very large income and not finacially challenged but the cost of living here is a joke. We were planning to retire in Victoria. Now we dislike the place and dont think it justifies the expense - we know quite a few Brits who moved here only to leave a year or so later because they disliked the place. It is like living in a permanent construction zone and looks a mess. For those who are not familiar with VI it is all virtually all socialist NDP with only 1 or 2 Liberal MP's scattered over the Island. There are small pockets of nice areas but mostly its very low end and run down. What has changed our thinking since we have been in Canada is that we prefer being in the States and often spend time over there on road trips and vacations. We find the Americans to be far friendlier and more intelligent than those we meet here.
Like others on this post have said we have found people here not what they claim to be and find them extemely rude both socially and in the work place - I could write a book on what we have experienced. We are very social people but find this place culturally devoid. Everyone to their own but we cant wait to get back to the UK. Hopefully to retire in Devon or Cornwall.

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

That's not what the election results on GlobalNews say.

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

What on earth made you buy on Bear Mountain???

That place has had quite the name since the idea was first promoted years back, went into receivership, and then the development finally got going. It has also always been well over-priced for what it was ...... unless one thought it was going to be exclusive.

I wouldn't have touched it with the proverbial barge pole!

I live in Vancouver, have lots of friends on the Island, mainly in and around Nanaimo or further north .............. nothing you say fits with what I know about the Island, except perhaps the large amount of development going on in Victoria and that you find everywhere these days.

Drug taking and stealing of copper wire and other metals is occurring in many places. Not so much stealing from substations around Vancouver now as the police got to work on the recyclers not to accept metal.

Methinks you got sucked in to a "lifestyle advertising", and fell for it.

I even like the thought that the Provincial Government is NDP, after many years of Liberal finangling and outright political skulldugery! That really harked back to the laughable government of the Social Credit days, which really did reward their friends.


I think you probably will do better in the UK with your attitude!

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

Bit of honesty here, please ................

Result of the 2018 Municipal Elections .........

Mayoral Candidates (2)

• Robert Fraser – 1,128 votes
• Stew Young (incumbent) – Re-elected – 3,939 Votes

5 incumbent councillors were re-elected and there was 1 newcomer elected


from the Victoria Buzz

The Mayor was not elected unopposed.


It is a sad fact of elections that an incumbent has a much better chance than a newcomer to get elected, mainly because people are not willing to pay attention or to read about other candidates. They tick the name they recognise.

Same thing happens in elections all over the world!

Yes, the number of voters was low, but that seems to be the case for most municipalities in BC though Langford was the lowest.

Did you vote?????

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

The term unapposed refers to any viable opposition. Normally their is a healthy selection of alternative candidates - their never is in Langford. Thats the third set of 'different' results I have seen for the same election. One of the councillors did resign and was replaced by one of their buddies. We were going to vote but as soon as we reviewed the candidates we didn't both like many in the municpality. It seems some peole living in this area go around with their eyes closed and are totally unaware of their surroundings. Check out WTF Langford to find out a lilttle history of this place. .

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We wished we didnt move to this place and have tried to move several times. We live on a golf resort which has been severley hit by the speculation tax and properties are difficult to sell. My wife and I met an Engineer on the ferry a year or so ago. He lived in Mill Bay had done some work for Langford. He said that they often took short cuts and ignored building codes. I have heard the same stories from work colleagues. When a place expands as rapid as this place that is no surprise. The Mayor here makes Doug Ford look a saint. My point was people from this Municipality are now running the Province. I could tell you a number of stories how people operate here but wont on a public forum - this is what really made up out minds to leave Canada because we have no faith in the system. You should check out WTF Langford for a history of Bear Mountain - it makes interesting reading. Len Barry should have been charged but he got off scot free. The owners are constantly trying to dig up the mountain golf course, they have already dug up the10th hole and put houses on it and now trying to to develop the 6th and 7th holes. Bear Mountain has a community association and overwhelming voted to request Langford to ban short term rentals and Air BNB because its creating problems for the residents. Langford ignored them. This place is run by the few for the few and is not what I would expect in the 21st century. There are other reasons we have decided to leave one of the main ones is the cost of living is out of control in BC. Forget property prices why an earth would you want to bring low income families into this place when they cannot afford to live here? We can also retire 5 years earlier if we move back to the UK than we could if we stay in Canada. This is our experience of the place, others will have theirs but I would suggest people really do some deep research into the place before they move and look at the not so obvious. We had to move with the job rapidly and the people we asked about the area let us down knowing what the place was like. Even my HSBC bank manager who I am very good friends with tellls me the same.

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

My attitude - I totally disagree what your assumptions but are not going to bother to reply. Believe what you like but we cant wait to get out of the place.

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

Blimey, do you have wear plaid polyester all the time, like in Falling Down?

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

Where do you think will be the next place you can't wait to get out of? ;)

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

1. I understand that here in Canada "unopposed" means NO other candidate running for that position, so the candidate is elected as "acclaimed".

There was 1 other candidate running for Mayor, therefore the incumbent was not unopposed


2. Ah ......... that is where you may have made a mistake, especially if the ones you DID like were new candidates.

You do NOT have to vote for ALL the candidates in Canadian elections, especially local ones. You cannot vote for MORE than the required number.

So, you could have gone and just voted for one or two candidates, and your ballot would have been accepted.

And of course, it really shouldn't matter whether both of you like the same candidate or not. One vote may cancel out the other, but that's what happens in a democracy ..... even between husband and wife :nod: