Re: Second Class Citizen
 

I think Raindrops experienced something similar for healthcare too.

Just in case the subject comes up again tell her that people can get a pension (OAS) from not paying in but based on residency in Canada. Canadians or immigrants.

I think it's an excellent system, after all one contributes to society in many ways - all the various taxes, bringing kids up, anything you do volunteer-wise, generally being a responsible citizen. After all, there are plenty of places paying 'universal' income to everyone so why not recognise what people have contributed in their lives.

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

It's also a good example of people not seeing the big picture, due to the aging population immigration is propping up the entire pension system in Canada.

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

Being the immigrant is certainly an eye opener!

I really don't think I've been treated unfairly or poorly by Canadians on a personal level however I do feel that because i'm an immigrant my life is harder than it would be and requires more explanation than if I was a native Canadian. Being in the engineering field is tough as i'm sure it is in many "professionally designated" fields, this can give me a tough time mentally and it's hard not to feel disrespected or inferior, which would lead down the road of feeling like a second class citizen.

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

I think, as you suggested, it's more you.

My wife and I have lived in 4 countries and find that how positive you are in your outlook on life really makes a massive difference. And if you get off on the wrong foot, it can really put you in a bad place quickly. And that outlook can change throughout your life and the situations you are in or experiencing a the time. My wife never really like the west (wet) coast of British Columbia and really struggled in the UK. I loved with all my heart the UK, liked most of the US and found west coast BC tolerable, but detest with all my being Queensland Australia.

How you begin your journey can really set a tone that is very difficult to alter once it sets in in your mind. If you have determined to stay, then you really need to work hard on changing your thought patterns. Shut out the negative thoughts and focus on finding and seeing the positive in your situation and the people around you. It could take a few months of very hard work but it will actually start to alter your thinking if you do and you might find you actually like where you are - YMMV. If you're like me and let negative thoughts about Queenslanders fester for so long that there is no road back from perdition, then you need to start forming an exit strategy as soon as possible. Life is far too short to live where you hate and amongst those you despise, unless you have no other choice that is... Then you're f!@#ed ;)

In our travels I've gotten to know a fair few immigrants from all over the world. We all seem to congregate like birds, don't we LOL. And the stories are almost always the same. More westerners go back to their homeland than stay where they immigrated to. It's a funny thing immigration, when I meet immigrants for the first while, they praise up and down how life couldn't be better - livin the dream baby!!!!. There seems to be a stigma that you can't be open about how things are going. Then after time to get to know them and a couple bottles of verbal lubricant they start to open up and talk about how things really are. Or there are those that always say life couldn't be better, then suddenly disappear, only to pop up back home. I don't meet many that are truly satisfied and happy with where they are in their move to some other place on the planet.

So take heart, you are more normal than those that embrace and fit in where ever they find themselves.

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

Not sure that's unique to or any more common with westerners. Vancouver has a huge rolling Chinese student population, and I'd actually say most of those students usually go home once their studies are complete. I've heard stories about people who came here from parts of Asia and just couldn't make it work or didn't like their lives here.

Immigrating somewhere is incredibly tough, leaving family members and a familiar culture behind, even if Canada might technically be more "developed" than your home country. People from all backgrounds can struggle and decide to go home.

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

For student visas I'd say that will almost always be the case. I suspect student visas are issued in the hundreds of thousands a year for developed nations. I was talking about longterm visas. I haven't tried to look at the stats on longterm visa numbers for Canada, and it's been a few years since I looked, but for Australia about half of all longterm visa holders leave. When I drilled down through the numbers what I found was that those from developing and 3rd world countries almost always stayed. Where as, depending on country of origin, for developed nations it ranged from around 40% to almost all left.

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

Well, we came to BC in 1968, and are still here.

We found "our" place to live, and at no point have we ever had any desire to return to the UK.

We did discuss at one point what we would do if the economy tanked any more than it was doing in the mid-1980s, and OH lost his job.

Running a B&B in the Okanagan was top of the list, followed by certain parts of Australia and NZ ............. back to the UK didn't even make the top 100 :nod:

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

As at the end of 2018 there were approx 570,000 people on study permits in Canada. Would it surprise you that 310,000 came from only 2 countries India and China.

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

Oh no! Unless those are the most heavily populated countries on earth, I'm shocked!

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

Its an interesting situation for sure and has been the discussion in my house for the last couple of weeks (with my Canadian partner) I came to Canada 12 years ago and was hired specifically by a small municipality for my exeriance in Healthcare, then again about 6 years ago i moved again and was hired for my specific qualifications in a very diverse form healthcare, Albeit now for the Provinicial healthcare system, increasingly i had noted recently my exasperation at having being told to take more training locally to make me more suitable for the removal of the Glass ceiling you so acuratly describe, and all the while having my knowledge and expertise visibly Plagiarised, usually for the greater good of the organisation,

I find myself falling out of love with Canada, for a lot of the reasons mentioned above by other posters , and have tried earnestly to learn more about the history and politics in order to be able to understand why this situation exists,

I wonder if it is because the both of us may have come from much larger healthcare organisations that are now too often being plagiarised by Canada's Healthcare systems, that our value is somehow seen as a threat, instead of what it should be.

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

i have never felt like a second class citizen here..in fact me being English for me seems to be an advantage..i work in senior management position...when i talk or give a presentation or am part of a meeting..people listen..now this could be because of my position..but i find it is also because im English..i have been told i have a "hardcore' accent but also that i speak much more eloquently that most Canadians ."so this guy obviously knows what he is talking about" when in reality i know the same as my Canadian counterparts but put it across in a different manner...i also find a lot of Canadians feel a little bit intimidated by me..not in a bad way..but they give me far too much respect when in reality i'm just an average Joe.

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

This bit is very true. We moved here more on an emotional whim rather than as a considered move and, when I finally got here, I did not want to be here. Mainly, that was down to how brilliantly my career had started panning out in the UK. So one definitely needs an analysis of why the move, why the place moved to, pros, cons, a timeline established for certain criteria to be met after which you pull the plug etc.

Myself, I have never struggled for work here, but struggled with the idea of spending years getting back to what I left. So, in June, I handed in my resignation with the intent of taking the summer / autumn off and do some of that work about analysing what I want, what my wife wants, the good and the bad of being here vs a move elsewhere or even back to the UK. I have gotten myself very fit (5k runs three times a week - now sporting a nice tan as well) and got involved in a few more community things and events. We went to a sit down meal thrown by one of the farms in the Valley and ended up having some great conversations. The penny suddenly dropped on something I knew, but didn't accept, and that is the importance of relationships here. Rather, therefore, than wanting out of here, I am now turning my thoughts to a plan on how I can make it work here because I now believe I can. May have to take a detour back into retail banking (ugh) but I can now see a way forwrd here. The big question is whether or not I am prepared to put that time in. To be determined...

I will grant you not many people can take time off to do this sort of thing and, of course, it can only be for so long, but it may be a less expensive step than simply moving again.

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

Think that is true, but also true of people, businesses etc. The more you need to harp on about a characteristic, the more (my opinion) you are trying to create a narrative for yourself. I do find that the "tolerant people" are prepared to tolerate things on your behalf but when something washes up on their front porch, they are as selfish as anyone.

It is the same as this nonsense that Canadians are super polite because they say "sorry" all the time. Meaningless, because it is almost an instinctual grunt when something happens, like they have tried walking through you and found that, indeed, two humans cannot occupy the same physical space. Then you get "soarry" when the truly polite thing to do would have been to try and meet the other person half way and slightly alter the direction you are taking. The true characteristics then come out when you put them behind the wheel of a car!!!!

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

My family and I have been here 3 years this month (citizenship time, oh yeah!). We had a leaving party in the UK when we left, we catered for about 50 or so but over 200 people came along, it was very moving and my wife and I were convinced that we could never amass that amount of friendship without the opportunities you have when you are younger, such as school, sports etc.

We are both positive people, and I agree with other commenters on here that Canadians are just the same as anyone else you will meet, if you drone on about the differences in the culture, focusing on the negatives or things you miss, then you will naturally repel friends, neighbours and employers while continually reinforcing that negative mindset yourself.

We personally love Canada, and that's my narrative, Canadians are flattered by it and I think they naturally want to be around me because that narrative makes them feel better about themselves. With that comes friendship and opportunities.

I think in our short 3 years here, we probably have more friends than we did in the UK and now our biggest headache is trying to make time for them all.

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

This reminds me of the old but true saying about white privilege, if you haven't noticed it that's because you're experiencing it.

As Millie and others have said, you can be the most Mary Poppins character out there but you're plain foolish if you think cheeriness is going to go anyway to combat set in bigotry and hatred. Its also very unhelpful to tell others who are struggling that they just need to be more positive, its victim blaming and gaslighting.
Not just that, but as has been noted in several recent studies about Canada's racism and xenophobia problems, the refusal to believe it actually is a problem and isn't the attitudes of the victims is one of the greatest roadblocks to actually fixing the problem.

I was a ray of eternal sunshine when we first moved, and I thought we'd settled in well, made loads of friends, was a very active member of the community etc etc.
Then we found out I was seriously ill and that I needed a lot of surgery and treatment, which have left me with lifetime disabilities. Those same friends stand at BBQs and say to my face, in front of our kindergartner that I shouldn't have been treated as that money should have been spent on "real" Canadians instead. That it was a waste of money.
They say that knowing full well I would have died without treatment.

Come tell me again to be more positive when you're consoling your small child over the fact that your "friends" don't think mommy's life was worth the cost to save and that you should have been left to die instead. That they justify it by saying it "may sound harsh but its fair, you have to put Canadians first". When you tell them you are Canadian, they half smile and say " but you're not, not really are you?"

We didn't come to Canada from the UK, we left the UK many years ago and lived all over the world before we came to Canada. I've been very happy in several other countries, but then I was healthy then, so who knows whether they too would begrudge the cost?

Now, just so you know my soul isn't completely poisoned with bitterness (yet) ;) we do have a few extremely good friends who are horrified at how our other "friends" feel. They are all First Nation, I can't help but wonder at the coincidence.

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

I think that's more a reflection of the people you thought of as friends.... NOT Canadians per se ... perhaps stop tarring everyone with the same brush - they are all different... I've met many BRITS that were arseholes and told people to 'go back home' - 'go back to where you came from'... and every other comment that can be negative.. I've yet to hear that from a Canadian except for one or two who are anti 3rd world countries in general although they would never say something so cruel to their face.

After my life threatening episode (and subsequently) I couldn't have had more support from friends and people who I barely know. Not once did I receive a comment that the money spent would have been better spent on a Canadian.

Generalising doesn't help anyone.

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

Oh yes, and the absolute kicker of it all is that when you do mention the problems you get told to move out of Canada if you don't like it.
Well I bl00dy well can't as I'm now medically inadmissible anywhere else. I'd never return to the UK, but I'd happily go back to Finland.

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

That's great Siouxie, I'm genuinely glad for you that you received the support.

The fact stands that Canada has a serious racism and discrimination problem, study after study has proven it, but still people trot out the old "but its not everyone". No, of course not, never have I said it was, but it is a big problem and refusing to see if doesn't help sort it.

​​​​Great that some people haven't experienced problems, but it doesn't erase the fact that a lot of people have experienced discrimination and do, every day. As was mentioned previously in this thread, its everyone's responsibility to challenge and combat discrimination, not just think " I'm alright Jack".

​​​​

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

There are different forms of discrimination - many nothing to do with nationality..race, religion or colour.

Discrimination for disability, for instance... or because you don't have recent 'Canadian experience' ... or recent education.

I didn't say discrimination doesn't exist nor that I had not experienced it - I have experienced discrimination from Government Employees who are supposed to know better... they are aware of the laws.

I'm sorry but I disagree that there is a serious Racism issue in Canada - I've seen far worse racism in the UK... but again, it depends on the people you mix with I suppose. Yes of course there are a few people who are prejudiced about specific minority groups or against certain religions etc., but they are in the minority in my experience... and whilst they may be opinionated, they wouldn't deliberately offend someone because of their colour, ethnic background or religion.

I also believe that much of the time they have these thoughts because they have been fed such stupid information such as that immigrants / refugees get money from the government get whatever free.... but Canadians are living on the streets.. Many of them believe what they are told.. without looking into it deeper.. and then of course the misinformation continues and expands exponentially.

I've heard those stories from people who should know better.. and always suggest they research and determine what is truth and what is fable. My answer when I do hear something that could be construed as discrimination is to tell them that we are all immigrants here.. just some have been here longer than others.. and to be tolerant.. and I remind them that I'm sure their families probably had to put up with comments and slurs about them when they arrived x generations ago. Much of it is due to the way they were raised by the previous generation and the prejudices they exhibited or experienced.

When I lived in Hong Kong I saw that first hand - neighbour's children who had happily played together with children of other nationalities being told by the parents (British) not to play with those 'dirty' xyz's.. and the subsequent loss of interaction between the children and the name calling that followed - all due to the parents prejudices.

We are all influenced by our personal experiences and some have probably experienced it more than others... and may have been affected by their experiences to the detriment of their general opinion of xyz nationality.. but for every person who is ill informed and has prejudices, there is another who welcomes with open arms and tries to encourage tolerance and integration and acceptance.

:)

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

We have been so bloomin' lucky in finding our place in the world here in Canada. We have not experienced discrimination ourselves, nor has our daughter, but that is not to say that I do not know that it and racism, sexism, etc all exist or that others have experienced it. However, the only time I've heard about anything bad towards Brits was from the Australians who used to talk about "bl***y Poms", and say "Go back home if it's so bad here".

One story that we were told several years ago did astonish us both.

We know there is a lot of racism against First Nations, most of it by hearsay and in the media and directly from First Nation leaders. We really ran up against that kind of racism when we had our cabin further north in BC ................ most people were fine but there was a small community of red necks who had nothing good to say about any of the First Nations in the area. Any crime "must" have been committed by them. We saw and heard many examples of it on the streets and in the businesses around.

A close friend of ours, white Canadian-born male, taught at an elementary school on one of the near-by reserves. He was a true "gentle giant" and loved children. He worried about those children all the time, and took every opportunity to be with them during school .......... he was not allowed to live on the reserve of course. One day he was sitting with a small group during the lunch break when the children started with racist comments about the WHITE people in the area. He listened for a while, realised they were repeating what their parents said at home, and gently said "But I am white".

The response was " You're not white, Mr xxxxxx. You're our teacher" !!!!

So knowing a person changed their opinion of him .............. in liking him, they did not classify him as white because he was always nice to them.


Raindrops ................. I am so very sorry to hear that you had that experience from your friends, but truly, I think that you should stop calling them "friends" right now. You are very bitter about them, and that is quite understandable ........... but please try to let it go, and don't tar all Canadians with those horrible feelings.

True friends would not say that to you.

True friends turn up and help you, provide food, ask what they can do for you, when bad times hit. We and other members of our extended family have experienced that here in BC, and so has our daughter in NS.

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

I think there's institutionalised racism against native Canadians. I understand that some bands, especially in BC, have been financially savvy and are now politically powerful. I also accept that the native Canadians do not help themselves very much. Nonetheless, aboriginal people generally live more poorly than the rest of the population and suffer unfair treatment under the criminal justice system. I don't think there's a similarly disadvantaged group in the UK, gypsies maybe.

Otherwise, in southern Ontario, no, there's lots of imported racism. People from Israel may not be keen on Palestinians, Greeks/Turks, Russians/Ukrainians and so on but there's no general discrimination against anyone except native people.

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

Yes absolutely there is an ingrained prejudice against Native Americans by some.. but I thought this thread was about immigrants feeling as though they are 2nd class citizens and treated unfairly by Canadians - rather than the injustices against the 6 Nations (which I abhor)

:(

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

Yes, OK. I'm not really exposed to Canadians so don't know about that.

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

the employees at this store might have felt 2nd class when being yelled at.

https://vancouversun.com/news/local-...aby-drug-store

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

Gross behavior. More evidence that white supremacy is still alive and well in Canada. There's a Facebook group called "Justin Trudeau Must Be Stopped" that is anti-muslim immigration and has some truly vile content.
https://globalnews.ca/news/6091196/facebook-investigating-19000-member-anti-muslim-group/

Just have to keep calling out this behavior really.

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

Yes, this happened to me. Wasted 11 years here (my supposed peak earning years from my mid-30's to mid 40's) and only spent two of them in my field of work (financial media). My First World education and work experience (at some big names in my field) were of no interest to Toronto employers. Sadly, I'm looking at the propect of packing it in here in Toronto as minimum wage shit jobs is all that I can expect going forward.

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

Hopefully you were aware before deciding to come to Canada that unless you have a niche profession (or in a trade) most professionals take a few steps backwards career wise, sometimes having to change career completely. It's very common.

Why would a Canadian company be interested in the work you have done in another Country - they won't, unless you have been headhunted. It'sa tough thing to deal with, I know. There's plenty of jobs out there though :) https://ca.indeed.com/Financial-Media-Marketing-jobs

https://britishexpats.com/wiki/Categ...ada_Challenges
https://britishexpats.com/wiki/Poten...llenges-Canada

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

Have you looked outside the Toronto area?

Employers in Vancouver seem to have trouble finding qualified workers these days for higher level jobs, although chances are wages are lower as Vancouver suffers from lower wages vs other city's in Canada, but you might be able to get your foot into something more suited to your field.

Biggest expense in Vancouver is housing, everything else tends to be relatively affordable.

But yeah it's common to take steps backwards job wise when coming to Canada, that isn't unusual. I have worked over the years with very well educated individuals who were working low skill and low pay jobs as their experience and education was either not recognized or not considered on par with Canadian experience.

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

You are not alone- many of us on here have had to take a BIG step backwards.

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

It sounds like he's already taken a step backwards for most of the past 11 years though. He's not a newcomer.

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

Yes, I am aware of that thank you; however, he appeared shocked that was what happened... I was curious as to whether he was aware of this possibility before deciding to move to Canada - it's a common theme (having to take jobs at a lower level than you are used to), not surprising in the slightest.

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

Perhaps it's not surprising but it seems to me to be a very odd thing to do. If you want to move abroad then surely the sensible thing is to move to somewhere where you're in demand. If you want to go to a specific place then adapt yourself so as to be desirable when you get there. If you're an experienced and knowledgeable deck chair attendant and you move to Canada it's no good complaining that you'd be valuable in the Bahamas.

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

Hindsight is 20/20. This was a super-helpful comment.

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

More helpful than yours frankly. In today's internet age it's easier than ever to research what a place is like and learn of others' experiences before moving there.

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

It really does depend,

Although I was born in the UK, I always felt like an immigrant and was discriminated against. So yes 2nd class citizen at times. Moving to Canada, discrimination is still a thing although it's more behind a smile.
Except now I am an immigrant as opposed to feeling like an immigrant.

I have read the ugly side of Canadians on the yahoo groups and it's pretty disgusting.

To my face and in general I don't feel like a 2nd class citizen. Well not when I driving in My BMW with the top down LOL
I think like most countries, if you integrate and are friendly you'll get a fair shake.

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

It's got to do with that "Canadian Experience" ppl are not gonna check you out or ring references in the UK.
EVERYONE I know had to go through this, except I was told I wouldnt need to due to my previous job and education and qual's/
BullCrap, day one was working in a factory.

This is fine if you immigrate when your in your 20's, in your late 40's its a pisstake, hindsight I should not have moved, last time I ever listen to a woman ! :)

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

I see that done every couple of weeks; interviews by internet, references taken by telephone. In the computer business, at least, physical location is not a big deal.

Of course, if you said you had a BMW that'd be the end of the interview; we have limited parking spaces and need people who can fit their car into just one,

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

Fer sher, eh??

All kidding aside, in my pretty extensive travels I've seen how immigrants (of whatever differing origin, religion, skin colour, etc) are treated in many different countries. And I'm proud how Canada stacks up, measure it however you will...

Not saying perfect, mind you, but the heart's in the right place.

Re: Second Class Citizen
 

As a migrant can you expect to be treated like a native-born citizen ? Some people have entitlement issues.