jenlaw

Hi there,

I'm a newbie here! I was searching the internet concerning british lawyers/law students qualifying for legal jobs in Canada. To my surprise, I came across some quite nasty opinions of British law students/British lawyers. The argument went as follows: British lawyers are not as well trained and do not receive as good an education as in Canada, and Canadian lawyers are protective/borderline zenophobic about giving law jobs to foreign-lawyers. The education issue seemed to centre on the fact that Ca. law degree is postgraduate and the Brit equivalent is undergraduate (despite the fact the bar exams and training contract takes much longer in the UK).

I am not sure how much truth lies in the line of thinking, (possibly I just came across an agressively charged forum full of stressed out lawyers/law students on both sides of the pond). I am in the last year of my PhD studies (so will have a doctrate by the time I would leave britiain, and also a LLM and LLB but I am not professionally qualified). I am seriously considering moving to Canada, and qualifying as a Canadian lawyer from scratch, rather than qualifying in the UK and moving to Canada for requalification.

I would like to know if any of you here practice law in Ca. or teach law in Ca. and if the experience is so negative? or generally, in other professions have you come across a superiority complex about Ca. education being better than British (ironically it's normally the other way around).


Thanks!! Jen

London7

Hi Jen!
I am a UK lawyer (Solicitor), now living near Vancouver.

I have just left UBC law school.

You should know that all foreign lawyers must be assessed by the National Committee on accreditation in Ottawa. This will include you, as you have your LLB already, although they do not "recognise" this. they will then assign you exams, you can challenge them, or go to law school, i did a mixture of both, as i became very unmoitvated at home, after being in practice for 5 years.

Having spent a semester with canadian law students, i can assure you, our UK degree is much much harder.

Canadians only have several cores, unlike us, they are marked on the bell curve, which is much easier to obatin a pass under, and they are allowed to do many options ie phschology/sociology etc, peice of cake.

They have no postgraduate study like the Uk, and no 2 years contract like us.
Its much easier here.

Yes! Canada does not welcome foreign lawyers, the law society in BC has been most unwelcoming,, they were of course sued by a Brit in 1989, as before then you could not practice unless a Canadian citizen.

I have a job to go to in June, and my firm have been great, the partners have practised abroad, so really appreciate the quality of the legal training in the UK. Can you believe they make us article again??????

I have been in court several times here, to observe and the advocacy was dire.

Wait for a response from Almost Canadian, hes working in a law firm, and is also appalled at the quality of the lawyers here.

Also think carefuly with province you chosse, as each varies in regard to articles etc, my friend in Calgary has had to do much longer articles then me, at least BC give me a reduction of 5 months for being a practising lawyer!

Feel free to ask anything and good luck

jenlaw

Many thanks for the great and informative reply!!

I have been planning to move to Canada for some years, but I was so disheartened after reading the comments on another forum. I know most Canadians are not like this (usually quite the opposite). But if I am going to be on the receiving end of a superiority complex (or inferiority complex possibly) I'd prefer to go elsewhere. I'm wondering if an academic snobbery has developed in Canada, not unlike the British academic snobbery.

I am also thinking of applying for academic jobs but I have noticed the faculties are almost solely Canadian nationals, which is very different from lots of British law schools. A young Canadian professor recently told me how his UT LLB (now renamed JD) was a 'doctorate' degree and far more superior than the British UG LLB, but I have been told many a time that North American UG degrees basically equate to our A levels. My Canadian friends have told me about the bell curve grading system, and also open book exams, marks for participating in class etc! When I was doing my LLM in London quite a few N. American students were horrified when failing exams or only receiving 50% on an essay.

It's awful that you must article again - that sounds ridiculous. I know it's not reciprocated in the UK, a Canadian LLM student did not have to do this to get admitted as a solicitor here. You'd think Canada would have some sort of bilateral arrangement with the Britain concerning qualification.

So, I have a few questions (if you don't mind):
-Do you know if any provinces are more welcoming than others? For me it will be Ontario.
- How difficult, and how long does it take to pass the exams for the accreditation stage? and how much do law schools charge for sitting in on courses? I guess with just academic qualifications, they'll have me sitting a fair few exams. If this is going to take say 2 years, it almost worth me just doing the whole JD.
- How long will the whole thing take from starting the accreditation course to being a lawyer?

Thanks again!
Jen

Almost Canadian

All that London7 has said is true.


I have attended meetings and court hearings with some of the "best of the best" in Canada and have been sorely disappointed. They really do appear to have a protectionist attitude towards homegrown lawyers over here and the hurdles they make those that want to requalify jump through has to be seen to be believed.

I am sure that there are very good litigators over here, I just haven't seen any that would be a patch on a mediocre barrister/advocate in the UK.

I'm sure that it is not the individuals lawyers that take issue with British ones, but most of the Provincial Law Societies do.

What is galling is that they make you obtain transcripts from your LPC, BVC and sworn affidavits from all of your former employers to see what areas of practice and responsibilities you have covered, just to ensure that you are assessed as being the equivalent of a Canadian Law Graduate (ie, someone that has never practised !!)

In Alberta, there is no longer a "Bar exam" to pass in the sense that would be understood by English lawyers. In essence one has to attend a course (less than a month's duration (I can't remember the precise length) and then the students at law are given assignments for a period of 6 months. I understand that they are given a problem to resolve (write a letter to a client explaining something; prepare an affidavit; draft a simple contract; etc) that has to be handed in a week later. No exam, no real pressure !!

I have met some very nice lawyers over here and I am sure that the vast majority of the lawyers here are competent, but for them to say that they are vastly superior to all foreign trained lawyers (which is implied given out by their representatives) is stretching things just a tad too far in the same way that saying that Tony Blair is always honest is !!

If you want to become dual qualified, I would suggest you get licensed in a Province over here and then do the QLT (or whatever it is called) in the UK - way quicker; way cheaper. Only thing is, be prepared to do some serious swatting once you begin to practise in the UK because what you have to go through to "qualify" over here, will not prepare you for practise in the UK - the systems are very similar, I know that, license aside, I could hold my own in an Albertan court or law office tomorrow. I doubt very much that the same could be said for a Canadian litigator attempting to practise in the UK.

This is in no way intended to be taken as saying that Canadian lawyers are no good, it's just that their training, in my opinion, is in nowhere near as comprehensive as that required of lawyers in the UK. An english friend of mine that has just gone through the process told me the other day that she feels that, having gone through the process, she knows less now than she did when she came over 2 years ago because the "training" she has gone through over here is such poor quality (academic training not "on the job"- ie their exams etc) and that she has "lost" some of the skills she had to use everyday in the UK.

Having said all of the above, I chose to come here; I chose to put myself in this position and I am willing to do so, so there is no use complaining about it - one simply has to crack on - but don't let anyone try and convince you that UK trained lawyers are inferior to those trained in Canada as they are not

Novocastrian

<removed>

jenlaw

Hi, thanks for replying!

Interesting you mention about dual qualification - that was my intention. I basically want quick qualification as I have spent virtually all of my 20s in academia and no substantial professional experience. I was thinking I would do LPC and the horrible training contract in the City, then hop over to Canada. But it is quite clear now I need to get over to Canada and start the relevant exams, then as you say do the QLTT.

Does anyone know if Ca. does a two year/fasttrack LLB? (wishful thinking).

dingbat

<cracks a beer..pulls up chair..>

jenlaw

Gee thanks...I would argue with you..but I can't be arsed.

dbd33

We can only hope the thread becomes a train wreck and kills them all.

London7

Jen,

You will probably get 6 -9 NCA challenge exams.

You can sit them in January and August each year, you can chose how many to take at each sitting, I would strongly advise not to take more than 3 each sitting.You have no right of appeal for papers, you are allowed only one resit and do not pester the administrator , she gets very crabby!

If you are motivated, I would take the challenge exams, They are not as hard as LLB (english) law exams, the thing that makes them tough, is you have no tution/guidance, just a reading list.

Motivation is key to passing with NCA.

Each exam costs $535.

Law school is not cheap, Its approx $900.00 per course.

I loved UBC, it was fun and to be fair to the Candians students, they had no idea about the length of our training, postgrad studies etc, they were very impressed once I explained what we have to do.

As for provinces, I did liase with the law society in Ontario once and have to say they were the most friendly, not so provincial as BC.

If you consider BC, you will have 9 month articling programme plus 10 week bar final course, which I am trying to be exempted from as we speak! I should hear next week, but lets just say i dont expect them to do me any favours!

Another option is to sit your NCA in the UK, I wish I had done this, it would have stopped alot of grief here! You can obtain permission from NCA to sit at a University local to you, its an option.

Yes, we are very fair to foreign lawyers, a simple Lawyers Transfer Test.

At UBC, I kid you not, I have been learning law that I was examined on at law school in 1997!

crazy eh?

bye for now

Sunshine Girl

Actually, I have received some invaluable information from a solicitor on this forum...but I would generally concur Solicitors are ......!!!!!
Canadian Solicitors are just the worst whores if your comparing.
I could recount experiences, but what's the point!

Purley

I wonder - if the education, the lawyers, the cost of studying, the studies etc. etc. etc. are SO much better in England - why would anybody want to come and practice law in Canada where the standards are SO much worse?????

Steve_P

Because the reason they want to come to Canada in a lot of cases has nothing to do with practicing law. That is their profession.

Like most immigrants they come for any number of reasons, lifestyle being a major factor.

They also are in the position to be able to compare what training they have had as to what we get, and it appears they think the British system is better.

There's nothing wrong with this, it's just that we as Canadians don't like to hear it.

Cheers
Steve

Almost Canadian

Because when we do jump through all the hoops, we will make a killing

My reply wasn't intended to slur all Canadian lawyers, just their representatives that seem to insist that any lawyer not trained in Canada is automatically inferior to one that was. The NCA appears to begin with such a presumption and there is very little that the individual lawyer can do to persuade them that this is not the case. In the UK the presumption is reversed - the foreign trained lawyer is presumed to be intelligent enough to adapt to the nuances of the UK system under the supervision of a UK principle.

I seriously doubt that most Canadian lawyers would be able to cope with the workload of an average UK lawyer. This is not a "them and us" situation but a reflection on how the UK (with most trades/professions) has descended into stress central.:curse:

As Steve P has said, I did not come to Canada purely to practise law, that just happened to be the profession I am in. If I had not read about other professionals (teachers, doctors, engineers etc) from other countries also being told that their hard earned qualifications are "worthless" I would probably reflect that I am being a little pig-headed. Unfortunately, my experience leads me elsewhere.

A very well respected law professor in one of Canada's top universities recently wrote an article totally slating the whole requalification process - this from "one of your own" that I assume knows what he is on about

Almost Canadian

Nice to know I can be of some use - other than as "train kill"