Pine Cone

I've been thinking about how to put those 'pull' factors into words that make sense, without sounding like wishful thinking because I'm very very well aware that there is no such thing as utopia and we're not looking for a perfect life or some imagined fairy-tale existence. I guess most of up expats know that you get a lot of the same s**t, different country. I suppose it's more about trying to both quantify and qualify very rationally whether the benefits of Canada would outweight the trade-offs we'd need to make, knowing that sooner or later we do 'need' to settle down somewhere long term, accept the globe-trotting was an enjoyable phase in our lives but it's time to put down roots again. My older kids are already thinking about Uni, although that is a few years away yet.

I have spent time travelling around Canada, and I enjoyed being there a great deal. I miss living somewhere with proper seasons and the opportunity for persuing an outdoorsy lifestyle (Hiking, kayaking, even sitting in my garden on a summer evening etc). I saw plenty of that while I was there, and it was very appealing. Of course, I also know many people pretty much hibernate indoors for the cold half of the year. I guess that is where having hobbies and interests are important if you don't want to vegetate in front of a TV for months on end or only get exercise by wandering around a shopping mall. BTW they also do this in Aussie when it's too hot to spend long outside, and we didn't leave the UK in search of better weather. It was never a consideration at all.

Heading back to the UK would be an easy option in many respects, and it will always be an option, whereas we'll be too old to qualify for a visa elsewhere before too long. Also we're become quite accustomed to the open space etc that exists in a 'new world' country. Yes it lacks the longer history and some of the great architecture, but then again the great outdoors is less crowded and as time has gone on, we look upon the UK/Europe more with nostalia than any feeling of missing something. When I see photos of parts of Quebec I feel the same thing. Also at the moment, Europe is looking less stable and bit like a train wreck in slow motion. Who knows how that is going to play out long term.

But of course, visiting another country is not the same as living somewhere long term. When people visit NZ they are in awe of the spectacular landscape and all things LOTR, but that does not prepare you for living in a brand new modern house which, due to awful building standards and slack regs, still barely gets above single digit indoor temperatures for at least 2 months of the year. The economy is also very small, which limits career growth and is very vulnerable to outside market forces and natural disasters! And yet, there is enough to enjoy about life there that many expats who get through their first winter will hang around for a few more years. Ditto Australia. The beaches are brill, the Blue Mountains are stunning and the outback is worth visiting at least once in your life. But it's just too damn hot in summer and the UV levels are scarily high unless you want to look like a wrinkly old croc by the time you hit 40 and there are lots of nasties that want to eat you both on land and in the water. People wouldn't live there if it was that bad of course, but I find we can't kind of relax and kids run free in the same way that you can in other countries because this is always at the back of your mind.

I'll admit there is a financial side to our considerations too. I want some long term security. Or at least as much as one can reasonably expect in this day and age. Sydney is stoopidly expensive and because of work specialities, moving to a cheaper regional centre just isn't an option. And yet we're not amongst the really high earners so getting on the property ladder here would be a scary prospect. Housing is Toronto is cheaper. Or at least it appears to be from the house prices I'm seeing online. I want to eventually be able to fund a couple of modest rental properties to provide us with some kind of income in our old age, or the ability to cash in the investment at some point. We've rented out property before. We know the pitfalls and the importance of decent tenants. In the UK you risk getting ripped off with capital gains tax, of course. Not sure how it works in Canada/Ontario. It's on the list of things to consider. Private pensions for people our age are not worth the money we'd pay into one. We missed that boat by entering the workforce 5 years too late.

Also it worries me that people go into debt and have to fundraise in order to pay for their % of surgery and medical treatment here in Australia. In NZ pensioners and less well off people avoided seeing their GP because they just couldn't afford it. If things got bad, they's simply take their germs to the A&E and make the waiting time that much longer for everyone. I dislike this unaffordability of preventative medical care, should we fall on hard times. I don't think anywhere else in the world is quite as comprehensive as the NHS. I'd really like to better understand how the Ontario healthcare stacks up by comparison.

BEVS

I am not sure what decade you are referring to but for what you have written above you are out of date with current NZ building rules and regs. Period.
Woefully so in fact. I am not even someone enamored with all things NZ and my husband is a tradesman working on new builds which does give some actual real time insight .

For perhaps 30 or more years ago it might have some bearing but what you have written above about new build is , frankly , rubbish.

not2old

http://britishexpats.com/forum/movin...h-care-854851/

Pine Cone

Our budget is $ not GBP. As I said, we're not rich!

You are right in that comparing village life with suburbia is not really a fair comparison. But equally, in pretty much any 'new world' country, a much smaller proportion of the population lives in a rural area whilst still having the ability to work in an major urban area. The distance is just too great and the infrastructure is not there. It's no different in Australia or NZ either. I'd be equally happy in a suburb which has something nice, some character, about it rather than just bland boring suburbia - be that old buildings and a quaint feeling strip mall, or leafy tree-lined streets, or perhaps within a 20 minute walk of a beach or large city park. In London all we could afford would be very bland 3-bed semi suburbia with crap off-street parking on the periphery of the city.

With regard to weather - yes, it gets hot and humid in the GTA but not as hot or as humid as we are used to here and the UV level is nowhere near as high. The UK is better in that respect, but then you have months of grey miserable skies and rain to contend with. Neither option would stop me dressing appropriately and going out and about.

not2old

OP, has post 15 & post 18 covered your questions & is it going to be the GTA, Ontario, Canada for you?

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not2old

When we lived in the Kingston area of Wellington back in the 80's the houses were more or less like the older not upgraded UK poorly insulated 2 layer brick, no double glazing or central heating & it was cold & damp in those winter months.

Perth & Sydney much the same, poorly insulated houses, most without AC, which for us coming from Canada, the winters in OZ felt colder & damp, even though the temperatures were warmer than the Ontario winters

Agree, like eveything else over time [as far as housing] things improve all round, homes get upgraded & new builds have all of the better 'R' factors in them

Pine Cone

Not really. We've gone through the building process in the last couple of years - and then sold up. I am intimately familiar with the most recent building codes, the woeful inspection process, the mark ups, the jobs for mates, the resistance to using better techniques and materials. The inadequate way the slabs and plumbing going through the slab are insulated and the fact that the industry still uses thermally conductive aluminium joinery. I mean, why would you even do that apart from industry proectionism? We were quoted a cheaper price for the far superior Kommerling uPVC low-e argon filled windows, compared to the quotes we got for non thermally-broken aluminium joinery. And the stuff is used in other parts of the planet where there is higher UV. It's amazing how much some cheap imported from China uPVC with no titanium dioxide has done for the reputation of different joinery materials, and the very false perception that very high quality windows that are used in places such as the British Antarctic Survey or the Arizona Desert are still somehow not up to 'NZ conditions' as it somehow NZ is unique and special. Even trying to import better insulation materials (the kind that we used on our UK reno 15 years ago is far far better than pink batts pitiful r2.8) means prohibitive import duties. Never mind trying to put in an energy efficient central heating system without paying about $10k for a resource consent, because apparently no-one in the country has any experience with ground-source heat pumps, most air-to-water heatpumps or very, very energy efficient and very very low emmision German (that far exceed NZ codes) wood boilers that'll run radiators or hydronic underfloor for an entire 4 bed house and still be cheaper than a one room heat-pump to run.

BEVS

You are sounding ---- familiar.


All I can say is that new builds now are good. Better. Certainly not the entire pits you are attempting to portray.Also, not sure why you feel the tech is not there. It is.

Anyway. Best of luck.

not2old

Pine Cone @ post #22

Forget all of the NZ or OZ issues or comparisons with building codes & construction, leave it all behind you & come to the affordable property market in GTA for a life of relaxation that will be good for all of you. Its a 7 hour flight to the UK.

Healthcare is good here, the children will enjoy the multicultural experience & you get to experience four seasons, less UV, more cold crisp winters [blue sky & lots of snow] rarely overcast

not2old

one other negative to add & that is plonk & beer prices in Ontario which are probably more expensive than in Australia & the UK?

Ontario Beer Prices

Pine Cone

Hehe, that dones't surprise me. I still find it amusing that NZ and Aussie wines are shipped half way around the world and yet are cheaper in Tesco than they are here. I've heard that cheese is equally expensive in Canada too. I think I might have asked about the cheese before actually?

Pine Cone

The tech might be there, but it is certainly not put into practice by the house building industry, apart from a few exceptions. Too many corners are cut. Better quality building materials that we used 15 years ago in the UK are certainly are still not available in NZ. Not yet at least. I'm not saying newer houses are the pits, but the benchmark is far, far lower than even the most bog standard UK new build house. We've done that a couple of times too.

I'm not surprised I sound familiar. This conversation about NZ house building quality is played out in conversation and on expat forums over and over, and over again. I'm not the first to mention it and I certainly won't be the last.

Pine Cone

Perhaps I'm taking this the wrong way. It's hard to read tone and intend from written words and refering to a 'life of relaxation'. But I detect a hint of sarcasm there? Or perhaps not. I can't tell. I would like to think that what you are implying is genuine, coming from someone else who has ping ponged around a bit.




Far too early to say. Lots more research needed, but thankyou for the links :-)

not2old

Absolutely zero sarcasm from me, cos I'm far too old to be bothered with that & besides, you asked a question which I believe genuine responses were posted.

Other than the UK, OZ & NZ are there any other places you have lived or experienced for long periods?

There are plenty of folks on BE that have lived, worked & played in several countries :nod

Since you are well travelled, have lived in a few countries, I would have thought that with each move you've made that it would get easier to go to the next country?

BTW, it doesn't take too much effort or much more research to make a visa application, especially with the resources of this BE community & its members!

Good luck to you

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BEVS

It is put into practice & I am not sure that you are in a position to indicate otherwise .

NZ standards are Oz standards. They share the same standards.

One cannot compare apples with oranges. UK builds are different. Not better or worse.

Anyway. I agree with not2old. Instead of bagging countries you have or will leave behind . Look to the intended new country. Although it might well be you will be feeling the same way about that country too a few years down the line.

Who knows.