I feel compelled to address the crime issue. The main reason I left Manchester was to escape the oppressiveness of it. Why not just move to Cheshire? Well, I had the opportunity to come to Canada so I did. And why not?

On to crime, I hope to lay this question to rest once and for all. There is unequivocally much less crime in Calgary than in a large English city.

I looked at a home office publication for crime in 2002/03. It showed that in England and Wales there were 1,904 violent offences per 100,000 people. Obviously this number will be much higher in cities like Manchester, and lower in places like Cheshire. (http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/hosb703.pdf)

Calgary, by contrast, had 817 violent crimes per 100,000 people in 2001/02. Less than half as much as the England and Wales average - and obviously much less than say the Manchester average.
(http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/030724/d030724a.htm)

My point here is not to be clever. No place is perfect, but the idea that Calgary is anything like as dangerous or crime-ridden as somewhere like Manchester or London could not go unchallenged.

Calgary had a spate of murders in the first two weeks of this month, all of which were organized crime related and which caused national headlines for the very reason that it is so utterly uncharacteristic. Let us not pretend that 9 murders a month is normal for Calgary.

I ask Alexandra: when you were accosted by a policeman in the park for drinking alcohol, were you at all concerned about your children picking up used syringes? If there was playground equipment in that park, was it broken and vandalised? Was the park littered with broken glass? Were the trash cans vanadlised? When you were harrassed by a nasty policeman for a traffic offence, did you that morning have any doubt that your car would be there for you to drive? Has anyone ever run a key alongside your car? Or stolen your radio, or smashed a window? Customs officials - they are awful the world over. My wife has been subject to all manner of nastiness at the hands of customs & immigration at Heathrow. My point is this: in terms of perception, I would say that people in Calgary live their lives without spending any of their thoughts on crime, and since moving to Calgary I imagine you haven't wasted a second thought on crime.

Certainly, Calgary has other faults. Boringness? Perhaps. Stupid regulations? Yes. A very unforgiving job market? Certainly (and true of all of North America). Is London more exciting? Yes! Are there more things to do (man made)? Absolutely. Is the job market better? Quite possibly.

But worse crime than London? Surely not.

Hi iaink just sent PM

Hi again just done your link that is the business...........everyone should follow

I have been here over 40 years and personally know many that came and stayed. Only know of 2 that returned to stay and 3 that returned here within a year.

I found the move from a Borehamwood, Herts to Barton-in-the-Clay Beds traumatic. Not a very friendly village unless you had the right accent.

Syringes? No, not yet. But I have a huge concern that my daughter will grow up in a country that's a large marijuana plant. Don't you?

Regarding 'just one person in Calgary', I recently found another forum on British Expats called moving back to UK. Surely, it's just me.

And I beg to disagree, Heathrow customs officials would not read your personal letters because you have an extra pack of cigarettes.

Calgary is right for somebody prepared to throw away all that they achieved in life. I don't intend to deliver pizzas for a living and never intended to.

If I lived in a grotty part of the UK possibly I'd be worried about crime...I'm fortunate that i've never have, and crime has never been something that I've particularly worried about. If I lived in a grotty part of vancouver then I'm sure I'd be far more aware of the level of drug use/syringes in playgrounds/car and house crime that resulst from that etc...all stuff that exists in vancouver. I'm fortunate that i live in an area of vancouver where although i have to be aware of the possibilities of car crime/hous break-ins, its not something that I worry about.
On a personal level though, i do know that my wifes parents here in vancouver have had their home broken into twice within the last couple of years, and that their car has been broken into/had windows broken several times.

Kids and drugs, or adults and drugs for that matter, is as much of a problem in the UK as it is anywhere else. I don't think there is any greater marijuana problem amongst young people in Calgary than in England.

It was the assertion that the problem is confined to "Western Canada" made by someone else that I was arguing against. I was suggesting that the experience in question is from one person in Calgary, not many people from Western Canada. I think that you would have experience similar problems in Halifax, Toronto or Montreal, no?

They will read personal letters just because they don't like the look of you if they want to. You are fortunate enough to not have been of interest to them.

You shouldn't put up with what you have. But does everyone who moves here throw everything they've achieved in life away? I know lots of expats who enjoy a lifestyle here that they would not have in England. That's because everyone is different and wants different things in life.

So I am not intending to say you're wrong and making a bad decision. I think you are making a good decision in your circumstances to move back to the UK. Either way it's none of my business. What I do dispute is your wholesale rubbishing - with what I think are false assertions - of a city/province/country that many expats, myself included, think is quite a nice place to live.

If you'd have said "Canada is so bloody boring, they won't even let you have a drink in public and that combined with our terrible time finding decent jobs means we've decided to move back to England," then I wouldn't have questioned it. But you raised issues about high crime rates and so forth which I think are just not true.

Expect to be debated with on a Canada lifestyle forum...

This is only my personal opinion, but I would much rather my daughter grew up surrounded by something relatively "harmless" like a pot culture then surrounded by the lager lout metality I remember in the UK where Alcohol in excess was the drug of choice, but pot and harder drugs were just as easy to come by as they are here.

The only difference is that the pot is grown in the country. My wifes family were tobbaco farmers in Ontario, and I have more qualms about that and the effect it has than I do about pot.

How many fights or arguments do you know of that were started due to excess pot consumption? More likely to fall asleep on the couch or go in search of Cheezies if you ask me. Not at all like the fights on a Friday night in the places I used to live in the UK as the pubs closed.

I know that people around here in Ontario grow pot, but it is by no means everywhere here. We once found a dozen plants in the middle of the road that had fallen , literally, out of the back of someones truck! but I dont lose sleep over it. I will educate my child that it is not a good thing, as I will tobacco, alcohol, and other recreational drugs, and I will trust her to use her good judgment. There are bad aspects to all parts of the world if you look hard enough, and it is up to every individual to decide how they weigh up the pros and the cons.

Iain

As I said before, I am not rubbishing Canada, I am just saying what I see. And regarding crime rates and all that stuff. Let's think about road accidents in alberta in particular. Look at the drivers around you. Is that normal? Not at all. I have problems with human rights as well (that's the person I am, sorry): shackling prisoners in court? The thing is, apart from our job situation and all that, I have a problem with the country as a whole. Policies, laws, by-laws. I can't believe that Alberta is planning to charge homeless people for a night in the shelter. Call me a bleeding heart, but these things do matter to me. My family has never, ever, been on a welfare, but I find it scary to think that if we lose our sad little jobs, we won't be able to survive at all. There is no job security like in UK, you can get fired any time with short notice. employment law sucks big time, maybe that's why trade unions won't let anybody into profession. Nobody ever cares what happens with new immigrants, as long as they bring their money into the country (like we did). It's not just my opinion, the issue is being raised quite often now, even in press. Only nothing will happen.

I was checking out the Lifestyle section for US and there's no such rambling on US experience, or huge deal with prof'l organizations and certifications (althougth it exists for a few fields), not to the point were decent, educated people end up working as diswashers, security guards, as pointed out in several Canadian forums time and time again.......

Obviously, there's some truth in Alexandra's post...... But it really sucks though, you pay the god damn application and landing fee and govt. just sucks it up....with no return!

I visit Toronto quite a few times on business from the States, its even hard to a good beer in a decent bar! You ask someone to point you to a NY-type bar for a cold one.....then they almost freak out....they go "you mean a hard rock bar" Then you say, no you crazy moron, a bar with a few drafts, with some cool music. Anyways, ended up going to a place called "Red Lion" - it was so stupid, a bunch of over weight people, no music, people with families (?), a few working class people at the bar watching Hockey! But they weren't rude or anything, but I am sure spotted me as a out-of-towner, yank! And oh yes, they tried the Free Healthcare crap on me, which I bitched about rightly 17% total food and bar tax on me!

Also, did anybody ever come across some folks as having inferiority complex, like cliche agianst anything American! One thing you could have tried though which works in favor of me, tell everything is American - most of the parent companies (IBM Canada, Lockheed, AT&T (Rogers)......), the Starbucks, the clothes they wear, Gap, and the list goes on! They the look the other way or break out of their Canadianism!!! I am not patriotic or anything, but people deserve to be treated with respect. I just hate attitude and mostly when there's isn't a Whole lot, to make them so abnoxious.

I mean I have two very close Canadian co-workers, and they are really great. But, overall Toronto is so boring compared to London or NY, why would you even move! My Canadian friend just moved back to Montreal with a new job (Yes, with an American company "People Soft"), is miserable and now wants friends to help him get a position in the States with the TN visa crap!

Canada is a beautiful and scenic country. I guess, some people could work on their attitude and not think Canadian education, experience, healthcare, politeness are the best in the world!!!

Everyone agrees with this.

Fair enough. Same could (and has often) be said about Calgary. Someone who loves NY and London will not like most of Canada. Different strokes for different folks.

People everywhere think their country is the greatest.

Hey CalgaryAMC,

I see your point, but what's up the third one - everyone thinks their country's the best.

Also, I don't think that US is the best and Iraq is a shit-hole! How can I be so arrogant or stupidly patriotic {what's my US bachelor's worth, probably nothing to Canadian regulatory bodies, ha!ha!), just to think in terms of mundane things and economic and military strength.

However, I still think some Canadians would do us and their county some good, if they could lose their attitude a bit!

Everybody's not that patriotic, and quite a few people definitely wished they could live in some other country for a few years to get different type of exposure and experience, but unsure if they would move away to far off places away from friends and family! I am obsessed with Paris, take extended vacations there with French friends, but wouldn't dare dream to live there on a daily basis - for employment and family ties in the States.

Overall, I still hear newly permanent residents strugglying in Canada and kicked around, which is definitely not to that extent in the States. Alteast, you will more than likely have some type of job in the US to help you get through until you find somehting close to your field.

To turn away qaulified, educated and accomplished people is a true shame and ultimately hurts the system, with poor retention rates, people returning to their countries, or going South after getting their Canadian citizenships. Please refrain yourselves from justifying it as all part of the process. Its pure bureacry and bull shit!

I'm a nutty old Accountant and when I drew up a budget for working in Canada I researched the going rate for both myself and my husband and then put in a potential income of 'below' that rate, which means if we end up with underpaid jobs those first few months/years it won't come as a complete shock. I also have figured that similar to my experience in the UK - my lack of up to date experience and qualifications in accounts probably means I won't get a job in finance and will no doubt end up doing data control or something similar. I have luckily welcomed that as a relief as my time as Accountant in Oxford made me ill due to the hassles and stress of having a well paid job. It was kind of nice when I was temping in Cambridge, UK last year to do something menial and low paid and not have to think too hard!! Hopefully though, if I impress the right people I'll end up being promoted later on and can consider whether to re-take my exams in Canada or whether to forget Accountancy as a profession altogether. My experiences were that the UK can discriminate too - OK I had been out of work for 4 years due to being abroad but I really didn't expect temp. agencies to refuse to interview me and the ones that did (about 4 of them) never managed to find me a job. Many said they would prefer references of 2 years or less and I started to think that they thought I'd been in prison or something!

I guess really nothing is cast in stone - we all have to make the best out of a bad lot and each person will find a different solution to the same problem.

People everywhere, not everyone. There are Americans who think the US is the best place on earth, Brits who feel the same about their country, Canadians who feel that way about their own country. You're right, a lot of Canadians live with their heads in the sand. Is that much different from anywhere else?

From an immigrant perspective, I am in 100% agreement. The pig-headedness, particularly of the regulatory bodies, is harmful to both immigrants and the entire economy.

Agreed. The issue is well known and widely accepted as a problem within Canada itself.

Agreed, agreed, agreed.

In fact I agree with a lot of what Alexandra said. Just certain specific issues I was questioning. I am by no means a blind fan of Canada. It suits me from a lifestyle perspective but I completely understand it's not for everyone.

As for newcomers having to take on poor jobs because their qualifications aren't recognized: there is no good reason for it and something should be done about it.