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Motorcycle licence UK to Ontario

Motorcycle licence UK to Ontario

Old Nov 29th 2022, 12:37 am
  #16  
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Default Re: Motorcycle licence UK to Ontario

"I cycle 12 months of the year and am weather immune"

What about depth of snow, how do you use a motorbike when the snow is too deep for cars?

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Old Nov 29th 2022, 6:26 pm
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Default Re: Motorcycle licence UK to Ontario

Originally Posted by dbd33
"I cycle 12 months of the year and am weather immune"

What about depth of snow, how do you use a motorbike when the snow is too deep for cars?
Most roads are clear and there isn't a heavy snow storm every day, mate. In Ontario the majority of the winter is cold but with a clear sky and clear roads, and you just carry on. People commonly cycle and ride in northern Europe in -20. Some Canadians are just too acclimatised to heating. I wear a kilt in -20 (don't ask whats underneath). You just get used to it and carry on.
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Old Nov 29th 2022, 11:01 pm
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Default Re: Motorcycle licence UK to Ontario

Good God, riding at -20c you gotta be certifiable.
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Old Nov 30th 2022, 6:46 pm
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Default Re: Motorcycle licence UK to Ontario

Originally Posted by Piff Poff
Good God, riding at -20c you gotta be certifiable.
There aren't that many -20 days here. Winter riding is standard fare in Northern Europe. Perhaps you may want to try layering up and give it a try on a clear day? The issue is not temperature- it's road conditions, weather, visibility etc, as I'm sure you're aware, as an experienced rider yourself. I will ride in the cold, as long as it is safe to do so for myself and other road users. Heavy rain in the summer is more dangerous.

Meanwhile Canadians will ski, sled, snomobile and camp in extreme weather conditions, and that's somehow acceptable (people die all the time from these high risk activities).

For your entertainment and inspiration, there's a British couple that crossed Canada on Honda C90 in the winter:
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Old Nov 30th 2022, 10:43 pm
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Default Re: Motorcycle licence UK to Ontario

It's currently -17 with a -24 windchill before you add movement, travel is not recommended on hwy 2 around red deer. All the roads are covered in snow and ice. Our twp road has just been a sheet if ice for 2 weeks since the wind polished it up nicely for us. I have to wear ice cleats to stay upright walking the snow monster. My bike will stay tucked up in the warm until spring. Winter is a sad state of affairs.

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Old Dec 1st 2022, 12:48 am
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Default Re: Motorcycle licence UK to Ontario

Originally Posted by johnjkjk
Most roads are clear and there isn't a heavy snow storm every day, mate. In Ontario the majority of the winter is cold but with a clear sky and clear roads, and you just carry on. People commonly cycle and ride in northern Europe in -20. Some Canadians are just too acclimatised to heating. I wear a kilt in -20 (don't ask whats underneath). You just get used to it and carry on.
I'm amused by your bonkers crusade but I find there are typically three days a year when it's infeasible to drive in a 4x4 truck. There must be many more for a motorcycle.
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Old Dec 1st 2022, 4:18 pm
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Default Re: Motorcycle licence UK to Ontario

Originally Posted by johnjkjk
The course is de facto mandatory. There is a stitch up between the province, private companies that run the course, and insurance companies.

None of the DriveTest centres I've spoken to will permit a test without the course. They need to specially organize a vehicle to follow for one person and they won't do it. If you manage to convince them, I've been informed that the attitude is to highly disapprove of such situations and give a fail for no apparent reason. The same test on the course is however a formality. And good luck getting insurance on m1 to buy or rent a vehicle to take the test and insurance companies won't currently even quote for an Ontario passed licence, without the course. They will consider previous history with an exchanged licence, however.

And the course fees are ridiculous. The cartel is basically high level corruption and I won't feed it.

Rather, I am determined to right this wrong for both myself and all future immigrants.
this sounds par for the course for Canada
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Old Dec 1st 2022, 4:42 pm
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Default Re: Motorcycle licence UK to Ontario

Originally Posted by johnjkjk
1. On their website the DVLA refers to an agreement with "Canadian provinces and territories" and in the FOI answer refers to "Canada". They do not refer to individual provinces by name.
2. Perhaps provinces don't make their own international agreements with foreign states, so the Federal government may have entered into an international agreement on behalf of Canadian Provinces and Territories.
3. Regardless of this, the issue is that the DVLA says that motorcycles are included in exchanges with ALL Canadian provinces and Ontario says otherwise.
4. I have asked both the MTO (Ontario) and DVLA for a copy of the actual exchange agreement which they are abiding by, which will clearly resolve this issue. However I'm being stalled: DVLA replied by email "we cannot provide this information by email" and Ontario is no longer replying to my emails. I am thus making FOI (UK) and ATIP requests to get answers.
i don't think you understand how Canada works. The Federal government legislates the minimum requirements for Provinces who can then set up more stringent laws provided they cover the Federal requirements. Ontario had decided that exchanging a license is not enough for a British rider. That's it.

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Old Dec 13th 2022, 7:16 pm
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Default Re: Motorcycle licence UK to Ontario

We've got some info from both sides (MTO Ontario and GB DVLA). GB has their act in order, but it seems that Ontario doesn't have clue and cannot actually point to any legislation, order or agreement to support their claims.

This is what I've found so far:
1. DVLA has confirmed that UK Legislation deems all 10 Canadian Provinces and 3 territories to be grouped as one, for the purposes of licence exchange, and includes car, motorcycle and moped (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1999/1641/made). In other words, the UK will recognise and exchange Canadian car, motorcycle and moped licences, regardless of the province it was issued by. The UK likewise recognises licence exchange with all former dominions (Australia, NZ, South Africa, Hong Kong etc) on a national basis.

2. As motor vehicle licensing is devolved to the Provinces in Canada, this is why there are specific exchange agreements in place between the DVLA and (some?) provinces. The DVLA provided me with a 2004 agreement with Ontario, for car (including moped).

3. Although motorcycle was not specifically mentioned in the 2004 agreement, it was also not excluded. There may be older agreements pertaining to motorcycle. I am waiting on further clarification.

4. MTO Ontario did not provide me with the above agreement. Rather, they provided me with an internal guidance note for their staff. This note says GB motorcycle licences are not recognised (but experience is). However this internal guidance may be an erroneous interpretation by someone at the MTO, as they refuse to provide any formal documentation to support their claim (unlike the DVLA, which has provided documentary evidence).

Conclusion so far: The UK will recognise car, motorcycle and moped licences for exchange, issued by any Canadian province or territory. In Canada, it depend upon the province. Most English speaking provinces recognise UK car, motorcycle and moped entitlements. MTO's website claims that "motorcycle" is excluded because it is "not mentioned in the exchange agreement" and has published guidance accordingly excluding motorcycles from a UK to Ontario exchange, but this may be an erroneous interpretation or misunderstanding on their part. Moped is definitely included, although Ontario has been denying this, so it is a partial win.

PS. I request constructive responses, rather than some of the rather rude statements made by some people here. Specifically, do you know how I can get more information from MTO, Ontario?

Last edited by johnjkjk; Dec 13th 2022 at 7:23 pm.
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Old Dec 13th 2022, 8:33 pm
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Default Re: Motorcycle licence UK to Ontario

You could try reaching out to your local MLA to see if they can help though arguing that something is included because it's not specifically excluded seems like a weak argument.
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Old Dec 13th 2022, 8:49 pm
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Default Re: Motorcycle licence UK to Ontario

Originally Posted by bc2015
You could try reaching out to your local MLA to see if they can help though arguing that something is included because it's not specifically excluded seems like a weak argument.
Thanks for your suggestion. The premise of my argument isn't that it's not excluded; it is merely an observation. The issue is that the UK recognises Ontario motorcycle licences, but Ontario isn't reciprocating for British licences. Both sides claim that they are acting on the same reciprocal agreement. The UK has provided proof to support their claim, but Ontario refuses to back this up with proper documentation. It is also clear that mopeds are deemed part of the car licence exchange and I will be fighting for this.

I need the MTO to give me some proof to confirm their version. Only when it is absolutely clear that motorcycles aren't included, I can write to ministers to update the law to bring it in line with the UK side, and in line with most other Canadian provinces.

I will report back here as to the outcome.

Last edited by johnjkjk; Dec 13th 2022 at 8:53 pm.
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Old Dec 14th 2022, 9:22 am
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Default Re: Motorcycle licence UK to Ontario

I am offering no specific help on your question, but some anecdotes from my experience.
- switching my motorcycle license from Ontario to the UK was easy, just paperwork
- switching my car license was a bit more complicated... the UK asked for proof that I had passed my test on a manual transmission. By some sheer fluke, I actually did. I rang Ontario something or another to see if they recorded this information on the test result. The reply "no, we don't. But you know, we get a LOT of queries from people in the UK about that'. I had a suggestion for her.
- the UK would then only license me for an automatic car and it took a couple decades to get around to taking and passing a manual xmission

On passing the motorcycle license test... my Ontario experience involved weaving through a few cones in a car park, followed by an unaccompanied ride around the block. I assume the key pass criteria was coming back alive, which I did manage to do. In the UK, even though I had transferred my license, I decided to do the test anyway for a refresh. It was all rather more comprehensive including a ride accompanied by someone communicating with me through a radio headset! To be fair, there were a few decades between the tests, so I expect the Ontario test may have got a bit more rigorous.
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Old Dec 15th 2022, 12:45 am
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Default Re: Motorcycle licence UK to Ontario

Originally Posted by johnjkjk
Thanks for your suggestion. The premise of my argument isn't that it's not excluded; it is merely an observation. The issue is that the UK recognises Ontario motorcycle licences, but Ontario isn't reciprocating for British licences. Both sides claim that they are acting on the same reciprocal agreement. The UK has provided proof to support their claim, but Ontario refuses to back this up with proper documentation. It is also clear that mopeds are deemed part of the car licence exchange and I will be fighting for this.

I need the MTO to give me some proof to confirm their version. Only when it is absolutely clear that motorcycles aren't included, I can write to ministers to update the law to bring it in line with the UK side, and in line with most other Canadian provinces.

I will report back here as to the outcome.
Just contact your MPP. They will have an office somewhere in the constituency.
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Old Dec 21st 2022, 2:42 am
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Default Re: Motorcycle licence UK to Ontario


I know it's Alberta but this is why i don't ride year round.
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Old Apr 27th 2023, 10:08 pm
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Default Re: Motorcycle licence UK to Ontario

Originally Posted by johnjkjk
Thanks for your suggestion. The premise of my argument isn't that it's not excluded; it is merely an observation. The issue is that the UK recognises Ontario motorcycle licences, but Ontario isn't reciprocating for British licences. Both sides claim that they are acting on the same reciprocal agreement. The UK has provided proof to support their claim, but Ontario refuses to back this up with proper documentation. It is also clear that mopeds are deemed part of the car licence exchange and I will be fighting for this.

I need the MTO to give me some proof to confirm their version. Only when it is absolutely clear that motorcycles aren't included, I can write to ministers to update the law to bring it in line with the UK side, and in line with most other Canadian provinces.

I will report back here as to the outcome.
Just to report the outcome here, the DVLA provided me with a copy of the actual reciprocal exchange agreement with Ontario, which includes cars and mopeds (as moped were bundled with cars at the time). There isn't a separate agreement for motorcycles, but the DVLA (in spite of any agreement or lack of) unilaterally recognises car and motorcycle license from any Canadian province or territory. In this instance, it is Canadian provinces like Ontario that are lagging behind.

Ontario didn't respond to my request for a moped license at the very least (as per their own agreement). I can easily upgrade moped to full by taking the test and potentially claim insurance savings for previous driving history, otherwise one has to pay thousands of dollars in course fees, tests and extra insurance.

So this is good news for Canadians moving to the UK but not vice-versa.

And certainly I agree that motorcycle riding isn't 12 months in Canada but it can easily be 7-8 which is good enough and can be a boon for those working in outdoor/seasonal trades like me.
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