Hello, this forum was super helpful when seeking our Canadian PR, and I am hoping you might be able to provide some insight at another big decision time in our lives!

My wife and I have been living in Vancouver since July 2010, and our child was born here a couple of years ago. We are PR, and our citizenship applications are in process.
We love Canada, but after almost a decade in Vancouver, we feel a need to settle somewhere else, as life here feels, in many ways, hopeless.
We are considering making the move across the country to Montreal, and are looking for insight from anyone who has lived in both places, to see if we would be jumping from the frying pan into the fire, or if it could be a good decision long-term.
Assumptions we want to test:
- Life would be cheaper in Montreal, and we could afford a better level of accommodation, with the chance to one day buy a home. Currently we pay $1650pm to rent a small 2-bed basement suite with very few, tiny windows. There is the constant fear that if our landlord threw us out, we couldn't afford anywhere as "nice" as what we have now. There is no way we would ever be able to afford to buy a home here.
- I work in arts administration, and feel like there would be good work opportunities in Montreal, at McGill, the OSM or other institutions. It seems like there is a more vibrant cultural life than in Van. It seems from internet research that salaries are roughly comparable?
- There would still be access to green space, parks, natural beauty etc. That is something we really enjoy about Van, although we don't have a car and can't afford to regularly access the beach or mountains. We're hoping that we might have more disposable income to enjoy nature more.
- Montreal is as gay-friendly as Vancouver. Can anyone attest to this? We love that there is ZERO issue with us being a gay family in Van, and would hope for that same feeling in Montreal, especially for our child.
- People could be more friendly in Montreal? This is a less concrete point, but after almost 10yrs here, there is no-one we would miss if we left Van. We lived in Glasgow before moving to Canada, and the difference in sociability / friendliness has been staggering. It seems like MAYBE it might be easier to make friends and build a community in Montreal? NB we have no family anywhere in Canada, we would be starting from scratch in Quebec just like we did when we moved to BC.
- It would be easier to raise children there? We would like to have a second child, but feel like it is almost impossible in Vancouver, with the cost of food, accommodation and lack of childcare.

Cons I hear about this move are:
Language barrier
Cold winters
Poor infrastructure
High taxation

What are your opinions? Advice? The thought of starting from scratch again is mildly terrifying, but at the same time, it is more terrifying to stay in Vancouver, in which we will never get a foothold.

How good is your French?? It may well be that being bilingual is a necessary aspect of a position as arts administrator.

McGill is one of 3 English-language universities in Quebec, but it does have a bilingual policy and charter.

When you post OSM, do you mean the Orchestre Symphonique de Montreal? Again, it seems that being bilingual might be essential.

We know several LGBTQ people who live in Montreal, mainly in the sciences ......... they all seem very happy, but I have no idea of what problems they might have or have not faced as that has never been part of our conversations. They are all, just incidentally, Quebecois born and bred.

Hello and welcome to BE!

Is there a reason why you have decided on Montreal? Is it the location, the language, the architecture, the employment possibilities - or is it somewhere you have already visited and loved?
Do have a look at our Wiki article on Montreal.. although it's mainly aimed at people emigrating it still has some helpful info for anyone considering moving there https://britishexpats.com/wiki/Montr%C3%A9al
there's also some interesting statistics from the 2016 Census https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-r...B1=All&TABID=1

These statistics for same sex relationships throughout Canada - Ontario particularly Toronto has the highest number, but Montreal has a higher number than Vancouver https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-r...016007-eng.cfm and you may find this of interest: https://www.mtl.org/en/explore/neigh...illage?pmo=MTL

Where else have you considered.. or haven't you? Perhaps another area would suit you as well... ?

Just conversational, school level really. We were thinking of intensive study over the next year or so to improve. My wife heard that you can get government subsidies for french language classes?

Thanks for the welcome!

Well, it's actually the only other place in Canada that I've visited, and that was almost 20 years ago. We've never experienced Toronto, Winnipeg, Halifax....
It's mainly the potential lower cost of living, ability to eventually buy a house that attracts us, along with the cultural scene (we're both in arts-based professions) and LGBT friendliness. It seems like it would be a good place to raise kids also.

Where else would you suggest that ticks those boxes? Winnipeg has come up in discussion also, but neither of us have ever been and we know very little about it...

I think I'm up... (Nb: I will be upfront, this is mostly the downside. I heavily expanded the BE wiki article on Winnipeg with I feel a balanced approach, but I am open about my personal view, I would never go back. Picking a place to live is personal and it depends what you value and want in a place - I certainly wouldn't judge others for having another view, but if you want a positive spin, you're going to need someone else to come along)

Actually I will now start with the positives. (Ha! I'm capricious). Manitoba was a relatively early leader in LGBT rights, the city and Province are both gay friendly, about the most anti-gay thing I heard of when I was there was 'with equal marriage, adoption, and anti-discrimination laws why is a parade blocking off the main roads still necessary?'. Which you'd probably hear anywhere. There is an art gallery, and the museum of human rights. Housing is relatively affordable.

Winter (by which I don't mean 'being a bit chilly', I mean winter) lasts a full six months, from November to early April. Then a switch is flicked, there are about two weeks of spring, and you're in a wet oven for the next five months, at which point the switch flicks back. There is no middle ground. last year in early April the windchill was still -27, by late April we were sweltering & hiding in the one room in the house that had air-con.

The city claim to clear sidewalks of snow, and people aren't obliged to. Consequently, the sidewalks are covered in snow, but about 4 days after a dump, a municipal sweeper will, drive down them and compact everything that's left into a nice, smooth inch thick layer of ice. Roads lose a lane because so much white gunk (snow? ice? frozen urine? who knows?) is pushed against the curb on either side. Road markings are optimistically waved at by signs that announce "if you could see it, there'd be a stop line here -->" (ok, I added the first 8 words. But they only need the sign because the stop line isn't there)

You'll get used to entering your friends homes without knocking, and calling up the stairs "Hi, it's us, sorry, too cold for manners". If you don't understand this, go read a book in your freezer, and while there dwell on the thought that the daytime high for half the year in Winnipeg is about ten degrees below that.

If your summer clothing contains fabric, you won't want it. Straps are your friend. Take a look at the map. Those lakes taking up half the province? Lot evaporating off them. It hangs in the air. The whole place smells of mold. The government run radio adverts telling people to wear long sleeves because of West Nile virus in the mosquitos. But it's too hot and sticky to wear anything at all some of the time, never mind long sleeves.

Drivers are aggressive and dangerous. Luckily they can't go that far because about half the city is dug up at any given time for construction works. After ten years of trying, they do have half a glorified bus lane branded as "rapid transit". It runs about half the length of one of the southern highways. That's it. The rest of the bus network is known mainly for the smell of weed, and not showing up on time. Speaking of transit, the card payment system is called "Peggo". As they cheerfully explain, there's nothing easier than topping your card up online, 24/7. Just remember to do it a long time before you want to travel, online topup takes 48 hours to be added to the card for use on a bus.

There is no scenery. There are a few small hills about two hours to the west. There were beaches to the north on the lake, which are now covered in invasive zebra mussels. Wear flipflops if you go, or take lots of bandaids. It is generally incredibly isolated. The architecture is based around the colours brown and grey, and windows are typically small.

Crime and violent crime rates are both high, although this is focused more in the west and north ends of the inner city. The city is trying to take action against 'aggressive panhandling' which occurs at most major intersections. They're waking up to the meth crisis.

Real estate is very affordable, which I believe is the 'demand' part of "Supply and demand"

I have only visited and never lived in Montreal, but I would consider a vastly superior city in every conceivable way. But, you might struggle there if you don't speak French. (Fun story: Winnipeg was originally a French speaking city too, and still has the French speaking heart of western Canada, St Boniface. Road signs in good chunks of the city are bilingual, so you can take "Rue Main Street" to "Chemin St Mary's Road", and are greeted "HelloBonjour" in many stores. But most people there are English-only, or at least English-first). I know Vancouver's expensive, but I can't imagine giving that up to go live in Manitoba..., (We had a very specific reason for doing so, went in with open minds and actually quite excitedly. My mind changed about 3 months into winter, my partner was looking for how to make it tolerable for me, his mind changed about a month into summer as he'd never encountered humidity like that before. We agreed to get back to BC asap).

Are you not considering smaller cities rather than ones like Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal, etc., - most of the major cities in each Province are going to be more expensive not just to rent, but to buy..

Hamilton, for instance, has a huge art scene and is LGBT friendly - including a Pride parade; is less than an hour by transit to Toronto for that bigger city feel, and housing is considerably cheaper than Toronto, .. in fact prices have been rising as Torontonians move here to buy cheaper places!

https://britishexpats.com/wiki/Hamilton
https://britishexpats.com/wiki/Burlington
http://pridehamilton.ca/
There's many smaller cities that would meet your criteria- big Cities = big prices!
http://opportunityliveshere.ca/live/arts-and-culture/
http://livework.kingstoncanada.com/e...x?_mid_=108207
Or for another alternative 'large City' - https://ottawa.ca/en/residents/arts-...ge-and-culture / https://ottawaculture.ca/

Unless you are native or near-native with your French, you will be shut out of most of Montreal life. The city is overwhelmingly Francophone - about 70%.

You didn't even mention the flooding!

We go through Winnipeg on the train every year around Christmas. December 31 last year, we were told it was COLD, so OH decided to get off during the train stop, and walked out the front door to see just how cold it was.

About -41C

He turned right around and back into the station to wait out the time until they were let back ............... earlier than usual, even thought the train was not ready to leave!!

We have been through there several times in the past when the train crew have said it was around -40C

I don't know about subsidies ........ I know employees of the Federal Government or its agencies are paid or get subsidies to attend French classes to upgrade themselves, and may lose their job if they don't attain the level necessary for the position.

I think you would need Quebecois French for the type of positions you're looking at, rather than the Parisian French, though either would have to be at fluently bilingual level. To attain that level from conversational school French, you'd probably need to be doing an intensive "live as a French person" course for the next 2 years.

That actually is the kind of course that friends of ours who worked for agencies in Ottawa had to do ............ basically 6-12 weeks living and breathing french in Quebec. Then repeat and repeat until they attained (or not) the proficiency demanded of them.

Thanks for the warnings about Winnipeg everyone!

We are not at all set on Montreal, but there is so much that is very inviting about it. The French issue confuses me a bit, as I have heard from many people that unless you speak French at native level you just won't get anywhere, but from many other people (who have lived there) that you don't need French at all. So I'm not sure who's right! Obviously we would work hard on improving our French as much as possible, but I'm not sure it could get to native-speaker level before moving there.

Thanks for suggesting other Ontario cities, we are looking into them. Is there anyone here living in Hamilton, Burlington, Windsor or Kingston - or Montreal? - who can write more about their experience living there, in terms of friendliness, quality of life, natural beauty etc.? I'd love to collect as many people's experiences as possible!

I think Siouxie was right to suggest smaller cities - but out of interest, have you considered closer to home? Victoria has scenery just as beautiful as Vancouver, an even better climate, gay-friendly, slightly more laid back and friendly than across the Salish sea, has art galleries and museums and universities. Not as much cheaper as some other places, but still less than Vancouver even in downtown, and loads of smaller communities as you get away from the centre. Kelowna probably not that different in cost to Victoria but with fewer work opportunities.

Montreal is 70% Francophone. Language is a massive political and social issue in Quebec and if you're being told it is no big deal, you are being wholly misinformed. You may want to familiarise yourself with the Office de la langue francaise and their powers. Those who say you don't need French are living in a small world cut-off from the city and the rest of the province. By the way - many of the Anglo suburbs of Montreal, like Westmount, Hampstead and Mount-Royal, are at least as expensive as Vancouver, if not moreso.

Well, I dunno about this. There are no end of people living in the GTA who don't speak English and have no need to so I assume there are also significant communities of allophones in Montreal. My daughter moved to Montreal and lived in an area of Stalinist apartment blocks by the Olympic Stadium, she said it was very francophone there. She had another sojourn on the Plateau and said it was much more mixed. The first time around she took a unilingual Anglophone with her, he quickly found work and, when last heard of, was still there. But then, that child now lives in French in Vancouver so, if you're looking for a language, you can find it without it having to be the standard for the place.

Montreal certainly has lower property prices, to buy or to rent, than Vancouver. It's been that way since Bill 401.

Academia/arts though? I would think that in that sort of cultural life bilingualism would be assumed. That idea doesn't seem like a runner to me.