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-   -   How do you deal with the racism in Canada? (https://britishexpats.com/forum/canada-56/how-do-you-deal-racism-canada-516374/)

burnsy110 Feb 22nd 2008 11:39 pm

Re: How do you deal with the racism in Canada?
 

Originally Posted by live to ski (Post 5971070)
Agreed.

Mr L2S is dyslexic. He's not overly bothered by it, and would most probably laugh at a dyslexic joke, so long as it was genuinely fuuny.

He got lots of special treatment when we did our MSc - a new laptop, extra time in exams, could claim up to 500GBP in photocopying costs (??) when all he ever wanted was someone to proof read his essays!

Needless to say that he couldn't be provided with someone to proof read his essays so I had to.

But I didn't have to pay for any photocopying!

"a guy down our street died last week, he was a dyslexic alchoholic....got drunk & choked on his own vimto":rofl:

is that offensive or just humourous?
I just find it a funny play on words, which is what it really is when you analyse it, but I don't analyse jokes cos that is not what they're for.

mandymoochops Feb 22nd 2008 11:51 pm

Re: How do you deal with the racism in Canada?
 
See this whole thread becomes no longer about racism, but more so as what offends an individual.

It boils down to this people`s

We all have feelings
We should all try not to intentionally hurt other peoples feelings
If someone hurts ours or doesn`t agree with something we do - then it isn`t for us to change their mind, moreso for us to change how we feel about it, or act upon it.

People have different ideas about what is good / bad /right /wrong and who is to say that your view is anymore 'right' than mine or vice versa.

Nowhere Feb 23rd 2008 12:01 am

Re: How do you deal with the racism in Canada?
 
I find the attitude towards natives particularly alarming.. and i am ashamed that it exists. It is just as bad, if not worse, than a welfare versus tax payer argument, and worse because those who are in a prosperous environment fail to understand the other side. All I hear is, we give them this that and the other, and they dont respond.

When I first when to canada, I found the attitude that I encountered towards 'natives' as really old, backwards and obsurd, especially compared to what we experience here in the uk.

burnsy110 Feb 23rd 2008 12:10 am

Re: How do you deal with the racism in Canada?
 

Originally Posted by mandymoochops (Post 5971167)
See this whole thread becomes no longer about racism, but more so as what offends an individual.

It boils down to this people`s

We all have feelings
We should all try not to intentionally hurt other peoples feelings
If someone hurts ours or doesn`t agree with something we do - then it isn`t for us to change their mind, moreso for us to change how we feel about it, or act upon it.

People have different ideas about what is good / bad /right /wrong and who is to say that your view is anymore 'right' than mine or vice versa.

Exactly, everyones got their own personal line and none are drawn in the same place. I wouldn't say or do anything to intentionally hurt someone unless they'd wronged me but then again I wouldn't want to watch everything I say in case its "non-pc"
"Racism" is the buzzword but the majority of the time, its just ignorance
IMHO :)

JonboyE Feb 23rd 2008 12:33 am

Re: How do you deal with the racism in Canada?
 
The treatment of the First Nations is a real and continuing blemish on Canada’s history and place in the world.

The starting point is that this is their land. They have lived here, uninterrupted, for 10,000 years.

Then, the White Men came. In the blink of an eye (400 years ago in Eastern Canada but only 150 years ago in BC) they expropriated their land, banned them from hunting for their food and systematically set about destroying their culture – leaving them as a people to rot away into non-existence. It was only 50 years ago we stopped forcibly removing children from their parents and housed them in institutions where any trace of their culture and language was beaten out of them.

That these institutions, where the children were psychologically, physically and sexually abused, were run by the Christian churches gives us an idea of what the White people thought was an acceptable way to treat native children at the time.

It was also the White man who introduced alcohol and other drugs. There was, and still is, some truth in the stereotype of the drunkun injun, but it is important to put this in the context. How are a people supposed to react when their ancient culture, in fact their whole reason for being, is taken away from them?

It is also a stereotype that suited the (mostly British) rulers of Canada. It provided a “justification” for the discrimination that continues to this day. Many First Nations people are forced to choose between the appalling poverty and squalor of the reserves or the subsistence existence in the city where decent housing is beyond them and the only job that pays more than minimum wage is crime.

The discrimination still runs like a putrefying streak through the Canadian political establishment. Almost the first act of the Harper Government was to cancel a multi-billion dollar assistance program the previous administration had agreed with First Nations leaders.

A stereotype is just that, a stereotype. I know there are First Nations people who have, for better or for worse, integrated into mainstream Canadian society. I still find it strange that the original inhabitants of the land are the ONLY ones who are expected to integrate.

I don’t begrudge First Nations protesting when they see their traditional homelands being sold to developers for massive profits. Nor to I begrudge money being given to ensure their young people receive an adequate education so they can lead their people to dignified place in this otherwise damn wonderful society.

All IMVHO of course.

Almost Canadian Feb 23rd 2008 2:05 am

Re: How do you deal with the racism in Canada?
 

Originally Posted by JonboyE (Post 5971289)
The treatment of the First Nations is a real and continuing blemish on Canada’s history and place in the world.

The starting point is that this is their land. They have lived here, uninterrupted, for 10,000 years.

Then, the White Men came. In the blink of an eye (400 years ago in Eastern Canada but only 150 years ago in BC) they expropriated their land, banned them from hunting for their food and systematically set about destroying their culture – leaving them as a people to rot away into non-existence. It was only 50 years ago we stopped forcibly removing children from their parents and housed them in institutions where any trace of their culture and language was beaten out of them.

That these institutions, where the children were psychologically, physically and sexually abused, were run by the Christian churches gives us an idea of what the White people thought was an acceptable way to treat native children at the time.

It was also the White man who introduced alcohol and other drugs. There was, and still is, some truth in the stereotype of the drunkun injun, but it is important to put this in the context. How are a people supposed to react when their ancient culture, in fact their whole reason for being, is taken away from them?

It is also a stereotype that suited the (mostly British) rulers of Canada. It provided a “justification” for the discrimination that continues to this day. Many First Nations people are forced to choose between the appalling poverty and squalor of the reserves or the subsistence existence in the city where decent housing is beyond them and the only job that pays more than minimum wage is crime.

The discrimination still runs like a putrefying streak through the Canadian political establishment. Almost the first act of the Harper Government was to cancel a multi-billion dollar assistance program the previous administration had agreed with First Nations leaders.

A stereotype is just that, a stereotype. I know there are First Nations people who have, for better or for worse, integrated into mainstream Canadian society. I still find it strange that the original inhabitants of the land are the ONLY ones who are expected to integrate.

I don’t begrudge First Nations protesting when they see their traditional homelands being sold to developers for massive profits. Nor to I begrudge money being given to ensure their young people receive an adequate education so they can lead their people to dignified place in this otherwise damn wonderful society.

All IMVHO of course.

Agreed but, where and when does it stop ?

Should people living in England be entitled to benefits from the French because of what happened in 1066 ? Who "owns" anything anyway ? What "right" did the First Nations have to the land in any event, did they "steal" it from the bison that roamed the land before they did ? Should all British hate the Germans and Japanese ad infinitum for the wrongs committed in the Second World War ?

I know the above sounds childish, and I have been involved in some litigation surrounding the residential schools fiasco that makes me want to commit murder but at some point society has to say enough is enough. Do you agree that they should be getting "special treatment" in 200 years time ?

I am not raising this as a financial issue because, in all honesty, I do not believe it costs the Government much at all to provide what they do to the First Nations, but I also believe that, by maintaining the status quo indefinately, the First Nations will forever have a chip on their shoulders and will forever feel the victim.

wiggs1034 Feb 23rd 2008 2:47 am

Re: How do you deal with the racism in Canada?
 
Working in an A&E department, I see the results of a lot of racism against first Nations.
I also see a lot of the social issues that they face, domestic violence, alcohol, drugs. Unfortunately for me, this is the only side I see, so I have a very narrow viewpoint and can only feel for the people that I deal with. It has certainly opened my eyes and i try to keep a level head, when dealing with someone who has been jumped by 4 white guys because he is First Nations.
I feel very ignorant of all the issues and history of the First Nations and I really want to change that, so that I do not see such a narrow depressing viewpoint all the time.
Sarah

ann m Feb 23rd 2008 3:26 am

Re: How do you deal with the racism in Canada?
 

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian (Post 5971585)
Agreed but, where and when does it stop ?

Should people living in England be entitled to benefits from the French because of what happened in 1066 ? Who "owns" anything anyway ? What "right" did the First Nations have to the land in any event, did they "steal" it from the bison that roamed the land before they did ? Should all British hate the Germans and Japanese ad infinitum for the wrongs committed in the Second World War ?

... Do you agree that they should be getting "special treatment" in 200 years time ?

I kinda agree here - it is a very relevant point - and previous governments have all added their own special little piece of 'assistance' to a growing problem that no new government has a clue how to amend for the better.

Someone, somewhere has to have the balls to draw a line - somewhere. Yes, many wrongs were committed - some horrific behaviour has been meted out - but a solution needs to be found by all the current participants. It's the same as hundreds of other disputes around the world. Real or perceived harm on one nation leading to death of millions, and destruction of cultures and lifestyles/livelihoods (and yes, you will quite often find the British at the front end!)

I have a friend who is currently teaching in a reserve school. It's another world. The kids, well, some of them, slowly come into school in dribs and drabs throughout the morning until most of them are in attendance for the hot lunch that is provided - as it can often be the only meal of the day (Which leads to me to "why" - ignorance or lack of education by the previous generation? Are the parents at home with no food either - serious question, I'm not being funny). There is absolutely no support for education from the locals or the kid's families. Why not? Because, presumably, they see nothing to be gained from a 'formal' (white man's) education. Could it not lead to anything else? Could the education be taylored better (but you could ask why should it be?)

The kids are provided with dental check ups - my friend thought a 5 year old girl had braces, till she looked closer. The child's teeth were rotten. To me, that is negligence. Five years old for christs sake. Education/ignorance - the funds would be there to assist in the dental treatment - why not take it up? What kind of person does not believe in the presence of teeth, if at all possible?!

The teachers at the school do their job with professionalism but with no added extra 'heart' anymore. Meetings and extra-curricular items are minimal. Parents have little involvement or perceived interest.

What I am trying to say, is that the next generation will be no different from the last - where does it stop - who draws a line?

From my own limited experience, the first nations peoples here are treated with the same comments and distain as the 'pikies' in the UK. Stereotypes abound - some justified and some not at all.

OK - slightly off topic from the origins of the thread now - sorry ....

buzz365 Feb 23rd 2008 3:08 pm

Re: How do you deal with the racism in Canada?
 

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian (Post 5971585)
Agreed but, where and when does it stop ?

Should people living in England be entitled to benefits from the French because of what happened in 1066 ? Who "owns" anything anyway ? What "right" did the First Nations have to the land in any event, did they "steal" it from the bison that roamed the land before they did ? Should all British hate the Germans and Japanese ad infinitum for the wrongs committed in the Second World War ?

I know the above sounds childish, and I have been involved in some litigation surrounding the residential schools fiasco that makes me want to commit murder but at some point society has to say enough is enough. Do you agree that they should be getting "special treatment" in 200 years time ?

I am not raising this as a financial issue because, in all honesty, I do not believe it costs the Government much at all to provide what they do to the First Nations, but I also believe that, by maintaining the status quo indefinately, the First Nations will forever have a chip on their shoulders and will forever feel the victim.


They were robbed of their land and culture so why shouldnt they benefit from whatever is made from it or produced on it. As for special treatment i think this is very little in comparison to their lose. If someone decides to set up home in your yard eventually the law allows you to remove them, this is western law. But this doesnt/didnt apply when countries like Britain decided to form an empire.

ann m Feb 23rd 2008 3:22 pm

Re: How do you deal with the racism in Canada?
 
What would the First Nations people want to happen? Have they been asked or has anyone done a survey? What would their practical solution be? Who is their voice nowadays? Do they have one voice or many? Does anyone know please ?

Almost Canadian Feb 23rd 2008 4:00 pm

Re: How do you deal with the racism in Canada?
 

Originally Posted by buzz365 (Post 5973581)
They were robbed of their land and culture so why shouldnt they benefit from whatever is made from it or produced on it. As for special treatment i think this is very little in comparison to their lose. If someone decides to set up home in your yard eventually the law allows you to remove them, this is western law. But this doesnt/didnt apply when countries like Britain decided to form an empire.

Without wanting to sound flippant, that is life. Should every displaced peoples be entitled to handouts from their oppressors ad infinitum ? I am not excusing what was committed, as it was horrid, but that has been the history of man throughout the ages. I am sure that some of their ancestors took "their" land from other "tribes" at some point in the past - or are you seriously suggesting that they were all transported in a vacuum to the locations the settlors found them in independent of all others around them ?

To me it is the position they find themselves in now is analogous to the young, single, benefit dependent youngsters in the UK: whilst they have someone to blame for their "situation", they can absolve themselves of all responsibility for the situation they find themselves in.

I would like to know how many of them manage to extricate themselves from what would appear to be a vicious circle of birth, poor education, early parenthood, premature death etc notwithstanding the exemptions they achieve through their status.

The whole "you stole our land" in my opinion is complete poppycock - unless of course we are all transported back to the days when we had to co-exist with dinosaurs:sneaky:

Backhomeatlast Feb 23rd 2008 4:01 pm

Re: How do you deal with the racism in Canada?
 

Originally Posted by burnsy110 (Post 5971126)
"a guy down our street died last week, he was a dyslexic alchoholic....got drunk & choked on his own vimto":rofl:

is that offensive or just humourous?
I just find it a funny play on words, which is what it really is when you analyse it, but I don't analyse jokes cos that is not what they're for.


Its not offensive and it's not funny:huh:

buzz365 Feb 23rd 2008 4:17 pm

Re: How do you deal with the racism in Canada?
 
The whole "you stole our land" in my opinion is complete poppycock




You would say that ............wasnt your land!

hot wasabi peas Feb 23rd 2008 4:38 pm

Re: How do you deal with the racism in Canada?
 

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian (Post 5973711)
The whole "you stole our land" in my opinion is complete poppycock


Of course the notion of "you stole our land" is poppycock and so it the notion that narrows a hugely complicated set of intersecting worldviews, histories and social problems into a singular cause.

JonboyE Feb 23rd 2008 4:41 pm

Re: How do you deal with the racism in Canada?
 

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian (Post 5971585)
Agreed but, where and when does it stop ?

Not until a genuine attempt has been made to resolve the issues involved.


Should people living in England be entitled to benefits from the French because of what happened in 1066 ? Who "owns" anything anyway ? What "right" did the First Nations have to the land in any event, did they "steal" it from the bison that roamed the land before they did ? Should all British hate the Germans and Japanese ad infinitum for the wrongs committed in the Second World War ?
As you recognize, these don't really work as comparisons. Perhaps if the English were still a downtrodden and disinherited people? As for WWII, the wrongs were resolved by war. The subsequent rebuilding of the German and Japanese economies actually contains the seed of an idea about what can be done for the First Nations in Canada.

As an aside, there is a sizable minority in England who still hate the Japanese.


but at some point society has to say enough is enough. Do you agree that they should be getting "special treatment" in 200 years time ?
This is where I disagree with you. For the White (and Black and Brown and yellow etc etc etc) to say "right, time to move on" will not resolve anything. If you have an argument with your wife, simply refusing to accept that she may have a reason for being upset and just saying, "I'm not going to talk about it any more" is unlikely to make her feel better. It is more likely to lead to divorce than reconciliation.

If the First Nations still need special treatment in 200 years Canada, as a country, will have failed.


I am not raising this as a financial issue because, in all honesty, I do not believe it costs the Government much at all to provide what they do to the First Nations, but I also believe that, by maintaining the status quo indefinately, the First Nations will forever have a chip on their shoulders and will forever feel the victim.
You are right about the money. For example, it would cost only a tiny fraction of the Federal surplus to provide clean water and sanitation on all the reserves.

Also, I agree that maintaining the status quo indefinitely is not an option. As a first step, we have to acknowledge that what has been done so far is a) wrong and b) not working.


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