Have PR But Staying In Scotland
 

Hi,

I posted on here a couple of years ago to highlight a particular situation that we found ourselves in as a family, hoping that others in a similar position would understand and be able to offer some advice to us. I was really surprised at the venom of the response postings from certain individuals on this forum. We received some fantastic advice from people who found themselves in a similar situation as us, but surprisingly this advice was given to us by PM’s to avoid any vitriolic, and supercilious comments being directed at them on the general forum.

Our thanks to all advice received and best wishes to you all on the various paths you have chosen.

Our situation in brief is as follows. We started the immigration ball rolling in the hope of improving our standard of living and providing our kids with a better and healthier environment to grow up in. During the period of our application process my professional circumstances improved dramatically and by the time we gained our PR we were beginning to question whether we should indeed immigrate. However still being undecided we made the decision to land and then come back to Scotland to see how we felt. Basically we were trying to buy some time to come to a decision. Our 3 years out of 5 to retain our PR status ends in May this year, and having made one final reccie trip in November last year we have finally made the decision to stay in Scotland.

Our decision was based on the following:

• Better professional prospects in Scotland.

• Good family, friend’s network (which we now appreciate much better than before).

• Weak Pound V’s Canadian Dollar for selling/renting property.

• Grossly over priced housing in lower Fraser Valley region.

• Drugs, gangs and drive by shootings reminiscent to the Los Angeles slum areas.

• Criminal elements so retarded that they conduct their vendettas against one another in the domain of the general population hence putting innocent families at risk.

• BC's liberal justice system’s softly, softly, stance on violent crime which remains completely inadequate in dealing with the upsurge in criminal gangs who are affecting the lives of ordinary individuals in the area.

• A marked increase in violent school bullying compared to five years ago when it was almost unheard off.

• Canadians coming across as warm and friendly, but in a detached standoffish kind of way, if that makes any sense. I’ve never felt like I’ve ever really ‘connected’ with anyone on a personal level, despite visiting, living and working in the country on several occasions. They also have absolutely no understanding of the British sense of humour!

• UK feels more vibrant and ‘grown up’ by comparison.

• Despite all the shit that we read in the press, I think folks in general have more fun in the UK with its faster paced lifestyle.

• Our European connection making for much more diverse opportunities for close proximity travelling.

Although it might not seem like it, this is not me ragging the shit out of Canada. We absolutely adore the country and its people. This is just one families experience with this whole should we, shouldn’t we, immigration adventure. I have posted this in the hope that others will benefit from our experience and the decision we have come to. We have spent a lot of money and invested a lot of mental energy on this over the last several years, and it has been such a stressful situation to be in for any couple. Life is full of opportunities but it is recognising the ones that will enhance our experience for our short time in this world that matter. The one thing we can take from our own experience is that you have to evaluate what you have to make a decision on whether to try and find something better. By evaluating our own lives we realised that we are actually very happy living on a small island on the west coast of Scotland, and would be hard pushed to improve on what we already had.

I sincerely hope that anyone reading this who is in a similar situation as us, can understand why we have made the choice we have. Maybe it will help them making a similar choice if they find themselves in the same position.

Re: Have PR But Staying In Scotland
 

Very interesting reading it sounds like you and your family have made the right choice.:thumbsup:

Re: Have PR But Staying In Scotland
 

Thank you for sharing your experience. The SW immigration process is a long one. Circumstances, people, attitudes do change over that period. It is also a mental roll-a-coaster...so many ups and downs.:)

Re: Have PR But Staying In Scotland
 

Good post. I think a lot of people, once they start on the whole application process, don't appreciate that you can actually get off the roller-coaster along the way. It's OK to change your mind.

Re: Have PR But Staying In Scotland
 

All the best to you mate. Sometimes people wrongly get caught up in a argument about which country is better, when you are dealing Scotland and Canada and all the amazing things they can both offer a person/family its pointless. The bottom line is really which is better for me/us.

Circumstances change and with that so does the ability of a country to meet your wants and needs. I'm in Canada not because I dont like Scotland, I still love it, but because oppertunity came a knocking and it suited us to make the move.

When so much time and energy has been placed moving towards a goal it takes a lot to step back and make a tough call.

If you ever fancy a wee trip back to Canada and havent tried it before New Scotland on the East coast is well worth a visit!

Re: Have PR But Staying In Scotland
 

A fair post, circumstances changed over the years.

My nana used to live in Rothsay, and if I had a good job over there, I too would be tempted to live there rather than anywhere else. Beautiful, beautiful, gentle place to live.

Good luck to you and yours!

Re: Have PR But Staying In Scotland
 

Sorry to hear your feedback on you previous experience on the site, I agree with many of your points on your list. If it wasn't for the children I wouldn't live in the middle of the prairies that's for sure lol! In fact, I think if it were a matter of me moving back to the UK I would quite like a small Scottish Island something we seriously considered last year in fact! So I hope you guys have many more years of enjoying your lifestyle.

As Joni Mitchell once sang, "You don't know what you got til it's gone!" It's good that you didn't have to get to that point:thumbup:

Good luck peeps!
Mrs M x

Re: Have PR But Staying In Scotland
 

I hope it all works out for you and I can understand why you are happy living where you are. Unfortunately there are not enough 'braw' islands for us all. When you compare where you are currently living I think alot of people would be happy to stay there as well!

Re: Have PR But Staying In Scotland
 

Congratulations on making the decision that is right for you and your family. So many people will go ahead with their immigration just so they don't get the 'See I knew you would never go' from so called friends.

It is a long process and many things do change. I wish you all the best in your new healthy lives in Scotland - it must be a relief to have made the final decision actually.:thumbsup:

Re: Have PR But Staying In Scotland
 

Agree with every word - and we live in the Lower Mainland! Yes things have changed since we did out reccies - as they have elsewhere to.

You seem to have researched and thought out well your reasons very well and I'm sure others will learn from your conclusions.

Re: Have PR But Staying In Scotland
 

Glad to hear you're at peace with your decision. If I could do the work I do in the north or west of Scotland I'm not sure I would have made the move either!

For those of us who don't loathe where we came from it can be a difficult decision. We came "this close" to staying in Belfast and withdrawing our application. When we actually got PR it was then another very difficult decision whether or not to stay.

We did move and it has so far worked out very well but we were took advantage of some lucky breaks and made a few of our own. In the current economic climate I don't think we'd have given up two good jobs to move to Canada with nothing lined up. Vancouver (and Abbotsford and Victoria and Kelowna...) recently came out very badly in a global affordability survey
http://www.financialpost.com/story.html?id=1226971
and it is a tough place to live if you are poor.

Re: Have PR But Staying In Scotland
 

I am really glad for you if you have made the decision and are firm that it's the right choice for you. :thumbsup:

I'm sorry you felt you were snarled at in earlier posts, so I had a look back, and really (having seen how nasty people CAN be on this forum) I don't think you were that badly treated. I was also surprised to see that a week ago you were still apparently firm in your decision to come.

Anyhoo, I stand by my earlier reply, that living where you are, with the lifestyle you have, and earning a decent salary, it's probably the best decision for you. You will presumably still have the time and funds to holiday over here.

You will most likely still face seeing the kids move away from the island when they grow up and want to spread their wings .... but that COULD happen wherever you are ....

So good luck with it, ... try not to dwell on what if's and if only's, ... and don't let others beat up on you because they desperately want to come and cannot for whatever reasons. It's your decision, your life, so do what feels best for you and yours. :thumbup:

Re: Have PR But Staying In Scotland
 

Good post and good luck for the future.

I have also been promoted twice since my initial application (how dare you get promoted when you are waiting to move to Canada!!!!) doubled my wages and moved house. Five months ago her indoors would have been happy for a refund of the fees, but we have decided to go for it in the end.

It should work out OK, but it could go wrong, but merde happens!

Re: Have PR But Staying In Scotland
 

Best of luck, I agree with all of your points. I should add that violent bullying has always been a problem here, the same as anywhere else. The school district PR machine just does a very good job of covering it up.

Re: Have PR But Staying In Scotland
 

Thanks for the honesty of your post, very much appreciated.

We will also be using the 3 year period to make at least 2 or 3 recce trips to come to an informed conclusion on Scotland v's Canada (probably Van Island).

Good luck for the future and enjoy the west coast :D

Re: Have PR But Staying In Scotland
 

We landed in March this year and have just put an offer in on a house - in Cornwall!!!
As you say, 3 years was a long time to wait.

Re: Have PR But Staying In Scotland
 

Most people who stay out that long have good reason for that mostly job. What happens when one stays out for more that 3 yrs out of the 5yrs, can they still come into Canada?

Re: Have PR But Staying In Scotland
 

GREAT POST. You've also adopted a very sensible approach to your potential move. We have also chosen to take your line, albeit we are a few years behind you.

When we get our visa - should be this Summer - we will also land and use the 2 in 5 rule to make some more trips. We have a house exchange in July 2009 for a month to Kamloops. I am also currently in Banff, Canada, doing a 3-month gap programme to achive my Candian Ski Instructor Qualifications. Whilst Banff is in no way representative of the Country, or even the State, and I have no intention of being a Ski Instructor (Fun only!) it has allowed me plenty of time to do some research.

I am slowly but surely coming to the realisation that we were chasing the dream based upon the Cheap, big Houses on MLS.ca, the prospect of Mortgage-free living, and the outdoor activities available on the doorstop. But now, the rose-tinted spectacles are off - a few of my thoughts so far:

- the employment situation here is not good. Uk qualifications are not recognised and employment protection is non-existant. I wouldn't give up my good salary and security for the chance of a better life.

- The holiday entitlement is derisory. What's the point being here if you have to spend all your time working?!

- The cost of living is just as expensive (or cheap, howvere you wish to see it) as the UK. No advantages there.

- The language is the same, but the culture is entirely different.

- Canada is isolated and insular. The distances and cost of travel make it difficult to go around the world. Holidays, with the little entitlement you have, are probably going to be on the NA Continent due to cost and limited time.

We have waited so long to get to where we are and are still willing to spend the money to give us the choice to go. However, the more research we do, the less we like what we find. Or should I re-phrase that... the more we realise how fortunate we are already.

Personally, I think we will end up staying in the UK but we will probably buy a holiday property somewhere in Europe to enable us to have access to the Great Outdoors - climbing, walking, skiing and mountain biking. But we can still come over if our further recce trips change our opinions.

Tigershark, thanks for sharing your decision.

Re: Have PR But Staying In Scotland
 

Just to clarify: You have to be physically present in Canada for a total of at least 730 days in that five-year period
If you lose your permanent resident status it is, (as I understand it), lost. You would have to go through the whole process again (somebody correct me if I am wrong....:unsure:)

Re: Have PR But Staying In Scotland
 

Or with your married Canadian Citizen partner ( who is married to you ).

Re: Have PR But Staying In Scotland
 

I guessed as much, we have being out for 3 yrs out of the 5 and must be in Canada by end of March (Tickets booked) for the next 2 yrs. We are coming as a family with 3 kids 5,2 and 3 months. Oh will go back cos of his job . I know it wont be easy but we have thought it thru , thats the only option if we dont want to loose the PR status completely. Atleast we will use the next 2 yrs to have a fill of Canada while OH comes monthly if we dont like it then we leave after a yr or 2 or stick it out till we get the citizenship before leaving.

I intend to get a full time nanny to help me with the kids.

Re: Have PR But Staying In Scotland
 

Doesn't that mean your OH will lose his PR status?? :blink:

Re: Have PR But Staying In Scotland
 

I think so...I do not think that the fact that wife will be a resident PR is relevant to his PR status and requirement to be resident. :eek:

Re: Have PR But Staying In Scotland
 

But wife may be able to sponsor him for PR as a spouse.

Re: Have PR But Staying In Scotland
 

Even though he essentially gave it up by failing the residency requirement the first time? Interesting.

Re: Have PR But Staying In Scotland
 

.

Re: Have PR But Staying In Scotland
 

It's not worse here than London! Nottingham is also a dangerous and bad city to live in, for crime. As are other cities around the UK. Scotland's 'Glasgow' has always been bad for drugs and crime. And so is 'Dundee'! The drugs capital of Scotland. I lived and worked in Scotland for 4 yrs hence I do know. I also know how very narrow minded some from there can be.

On the whole yours seems to be a very negative and biased post, and I do not totally agree with all that was posted there. You also generalized with a bad attitude. Maybe you both just did not fit in?

I agree with this one though (see below), but it tends to mainly be those from Vancouver, not anywhere else in Canada or the US, whenever I travel out of Vancouver I tend to find it the opposite in comparison, and Canadians local to me from other regions agree with me on this one, plus I hear it all the time from them, I read it here on local rock climbing forums, and generally hear it all the time, it mainly focuses on the Vancouver 'locals' though as in those who grew up here and remain here not those who move here and are from other provinces. Personally I find that no different to some I met from Scotland when I lived and worked up there, who told me to go back to England as I am English. Nice! Except if it was not for the English being up there in the first place the Scots would have had no wealth or not as much. At least the Canadians are not so rude as that.

For the record, I owned a place in Scotland too. Since living here I would not give up Canada for Scotland, not even if I were paid to. But that's just me :)
Here is far better.

This is what I refer to as it being mainly locals in Vancouver that grew up and were born here in Vancouver: Canadians coming across as warm and friendly, but in a detached standoffish kind of way, if that makes any sense. I’ve never felt like I’ve ever really ‘connected’ with anyone on a personal level, despite visiting, living and working in the country on several occasions. They also have absolutely no understanding of the British sense of humour!

p.s. if the humour you refer to was sarcastic in nature, well that does not go down well in Canada it is regarded as offending and offensive, and no offence but personally I too take offence too to overly sarcastic people making humour, and I am not Canadian.

Re: Have PR But Staying In Scotland
 

We know that OH will loose his PR status but for now he has to work outside Canada since he has not got a job yet . Am currently pursuing an MBA (Online) so I can stay home with the kids.

Re: Have PR But Staying In Scotland
 

Chicken!


Bullet proof vest it is then?!

Re: Have PR But Staying In Scotland
 

I think your post is hypocritical you have also "generalized with a bad attitude".

Re: Have PR But Staying In Scotland
 

Oh well, doesn't bother me so much what you think. We are all entitled to our own opinions after all, even if your view on my post was inaccurate.

I am stating the facts from my own evidence having lived in Scotland for 4 yrs, and in Canada for almost 2 yrs now and where intend to remain. And I see you are from Scotland. Wouldn't be siding with the OP for that reason now would you? That would be biased.

I also did love the West coast of Scotland and I like Edinburgh, especially their accent. It is not the whole of Scotland I found unfriendly and rude, more a minority, but my point is you get that everywhere, not just in Canada, Scotland, Wales, England, you get it everywhere. And the part I stated about Glasgow and Dundee is all true, as you would full well know.
Unfortunately some cities in England are not so much better, London is one of the most dangerous cities to live in for the long term. Nice to visit but always nice to get out again. Crime in the UK is not so well controlled either is it?, never mind the statement about it not being well controlled here in Canada.

Canada is wonderful in so many many ways. Having lived in and traveled to other parts of the world, I can honestly say no where quite beats living here for me, personally speaking of course.

Re: Have PR But Staying In Scotland
 

There is no denying that Glasgow and Dundee etc have crime problems, and neither is it untrue that "SOME" Scots are rude. It is also unacceptable that someone should tell you to go back to England as a UK citizen it is your right to live peacefully wherever you want in the UK.

However I'm afraid if you are going to give it "if it wasn't for the English" it gives a I'm better than you attitude that comes across as very arrogant.:thumbdown:

IMO

Re: Have PR But Staying In Scotland
 

I will finally be in Canada by the 3rd week in March ,after staying out for 3 yrs out of the 5yrs. Can I go on holiday?

Re: Have PR But Staying In Scotland
 

The answer is probably no if you've cut it that fine. You need to make sure you meet your residency requirement if you don't want to loose your PR status - and that means being physically present in Canada for 1072 days out of every 5 years.

Any time out of Canada (i.e. on holiday back to the UK or even popping over the border to the US) will NOT count towards that requirement.

Be very careful and calculate exactly how many days you've spent in Canada and whether you will be able to leave Canada at all once you are there.

Hope that helps, good luck. :)

Re: Have PR But Staying In Scotland
 

Hi there, I have been a PR in Ontario GTA since July 07 with my Canadian husband. We have recently decided to return to UK and our reasons for going back to UK echo some of the reasons listed on your original post. I think you are v. sensible to have come to this conclusion before leaving Scotland. I think if you have good jobs in UK then you will be better off there, unless you have good jobs already lined up in Canada and know that your income is the same/better. We came on the mis-conception that I would be able to get a job at a similar level to my previous job in England (university administrator) but I have failed to achieve the goal of finding employment, much to my husbands surprise. I know that I could start at the beginning again, work v. part-time/volunteer in an unrelated area and then build my way up over a long period of time, but this was not really the plan, and we know we would be better off in UK even with current recession. Fortunately my husband has a job related to UK so we are surviving but we are being hit hard by the exchange rates! With hindsight, and the knowledge you have aquired, we wouldn't have come - although in our case we really had to test the waters of living in Canada due to my husbands nationality. He actually was happier in UK also as he loves to travel and we feel very isolated here and do not have the money to travel to the US to explore. Canada is a wonderful place and the people are friendly, and I will definitely visit in the future, but in terms of lifestyle/quality of life even with all the Uk's issues we will be better off there. This is always a very subjective decision as I know a lot of people would sacrifice elements in their life (job situation) to live in this environment, and it really depends if you are suited to it overall. Plus winters in Ontario are insanely harsh if you are from UK..that pretty much helped our decision AND my husband is Canadian. Good luck with the future I don't think you will regret staying, as you can always enjoy Canada for holidays.

Re: Have PR But Staying In Scotland
 

Thanks christmasoompa for the reality check. I will stick it out once I take up recidence in Calgary and truely be CALGARYLADY

Re: Have PR But Staying In Scotland
 

Hi Tigershark and also Chutley....

Sounds like you have both made thoughtful and sensible decisions for your families....I certainly wouldn't encourage anyone to disrupt their lives unless they can see it would improve things OR unless they really just want to experience a different place....

I will say that I completely disagree with both of your assements of Canada...I do think that one of the jobs of an immigrant (if they want to be successful) is to open themselves up to the country they are going to...Therefore I fail to see why not understanding the British sense of humour is such an issue....Canada is not Britain - that is why many of us moved here!!! As far as all the points you both raise go, you are both obviously entitled to them BUT you write them as though they are statements of fact rather than simply your opinion....I have spent time in LA as well as the Fraser Valley/Vancouver and Calgary etc...I can assure you that the Fraser Valley is nothing like parts of LA....!!!

As I have said, you are both fully entitled to your opinions and I think you have come to thought out and sensible decisions.....Canada has problems. I think they pale beside the UK's but again that is just my opinion.....

Good luck with everything
L

Re: Have PR But Staying In Scotland
 

I thought it was seven hundred and something days to retain PR status. And the 1072 days bit refers to qualifying for citizenship?? Either way- to calgarylady, I think you can forget holidays for a year or two ;)

Re: Have PR But Staying In Scotland
 

Hi

Couldn't resist one shot at the OP. Homicide rate Scotland 2.33 per 100/k (2nd highest in Western Europe) BC 2.01 per 100/k LA 13.8 per 100/k.

Re: Have PR But Staying In Scotland
 

what do you mean if it wasnt for the english scotland wouldnt be as rich???
that makes you sound like a proper little englander.,or as they called them in dumfries and galloway ;white settlers.
they come in take over the community councils and treat the locals like natives.:frown: