Flag-polling - no longer permitted.
Jul 12th 2008 | 11:52 am
#16
Assimilated Pauper
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 40,070
From: Ontario
Re: Flag-polling - no longer permitted.
Does anyone live just in Canada? Most people I know go to the US a few times a year, to shop, to watch sports, to go to the theatre, to enjoy the weather. Canada is in large part a suburb of America. Why not just wait until the next trip to the US rather than making a specific one?
Jul 12th 2008 | 1:04 pm
#17
Thread Starter
Pea Brain
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 6,005
From: TBD
Re: Flag-polling - no longer permitted.
I've not left Canada in nearly 3yrs, and have no plans or need to visit the US in the near future. A specific trip to fit in with work commitments was the only way to sort things out.
Travelling 5hrs+ to the nearest city (Seattle) that would offer better shopping than I can find in BC just doesn't appeal. And the weather's hardly better than BC's interior.
Travelling 5hrs+ to the nearest city (Seattle) that would offer better shopping than I can find in BC just doesn't appeal. And the weather's hardly better than BC's interior.
Jul 12th 2008 | 1:41 pm
#18
Assimilated Pauper
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 40,070
From: Ontario
Re: Flag-polling - no longer permitted.
I suggest that that's unusual. In general people in Canada will go to Florida or Arizona or Texas at least once a year so as to see the sea or winter sun or just to be in a fun kind of place.
Jul 13th 2008 | 2:25 pm
#20
Retired
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 34,646
Re: Flag-polling - no longer permitted.
We successfully got our PR visa's authorised on Thursday by visiting the Huntingdon/Sumas border crossing in the Fraser Valley, near Vancouver.
You should be aware, though, that US Customs no longer permits flag-polling. They're concerned that admitting individuals into the States, albeit only for the purpose of turning straight back into Canada leaves them open to the possibility that Canada has the right to refuse entry, and then the US is left with individuals that they possibly don't want either.
The process now involves having to be formally interviewed, fingerprinted (14 prints - palms and all), photographed and then documentation being produced that indicates you were officially refused entry to the US. Canada then has no choice but to allow you back in.
This took us 2hrs with US immigration - one guy working through the paperwork solidly on his own. If you're traveling with a family, expect it to take longer. In one respect it means that you don't officially leave Canada, so departure and landing never really occurs in order to meet immigration requirements for the PR visa, but the Canadian immigration officer we dealt with just said it was US immigration paranoia, and they were unconcerned about the legal technicalities. Including the line up to leave Canada, then re-enter, plus 30mins of paperwork with Canadian immigration, in total it took us over 4hrs to get everything dealt with. That was late morning on a mid-week day.
I asked the US immigration guy if it would have been simpler for us just to have paid the $6 each for a visa to visit the US and then dealt with the PR landing on our way back into Canada. He was adamant that we'd have been committing an offense by not declaring our real intentions for visiting the US, and that he'd rather have the correct paperwork drawn up than risk us being arrested. There was a very marked contrast in attitude between the US and Canadian immigration personnel - cold, impersonal and intimidating vs welcoming and friendly.
You should be aware, though, that US Customs no longer permits flag-polling. They're concerned that admitting individuals into the States, albeit only for the purpose of turning straight back into Canada leaves them open to the possibility that Canada has the right to refuse entry, and then the US is left with individuals that they possibly don't want either.
The process now involves having to be formally interviewed, fingerprinted (14 prints - palms and all), photographed and then documentation being produced that indicates you were officially refused entry to the US. Canada then has no choice but to allow you back in.
This took us 2hrs with US immigration - one guy working through the paperwork solidly on his own. If you're traveling with a family, expect it to take longer. In one respect it means that you don't officially leave Canada, so departure and landing never really occurs in order to meet immigration requirements for the PR visa, but the Canadian immigration officer we dealt with just said it was US immigration paranoia, and they were unconcerned about the legal technicalities. Including the line up to leave Canada, then re-enter, plus 30mins of paperwork with Canadian immigration, in total it took us over 4hrs to get everything dealt with. That was late morning on a mid-week day.
I asked the US immigration guy if it would have been simpler for us just to have paid the $6 each for a visa to visit the US and then dealt with the PR landing on our way back into Canada. He was adamant that we'd have been committing an offense by not declaring our real intentions for visiting the US, and that he'd rather have the correct paperwork drawn up than risk us being arrested. There was a very marked contrast in attitude between the US and Canadian immigration personnel - cold, impersonal and intimidating vs welcoming and friendly.
1. It was the Canadian customs authorities that started insisting on a refusal letter or U.S. admission before allowing "flagpoling", back in 2004.
2. There is absolutely no change in U.S. immigration regulations. The policy, as enforced here, is that someone arriving from Canada must formally be admitted or refused entry.
3. It is absolutely legal to enter the United States and re-enter Canada in some other capacity (if you are admissible to the United States as a visitor). You can do so either by air or by land. But you do need to have some kind of plan in mind, ie, something better than just turning around at the border. Border guards hate it otherwise. So do your homework and work out where you would like to visit in the U.S. - town, national park, shopping mall etc - get admitted, and go there, then return to Canada.
4. Getting a refusal onto your record is not a good idea. Regardless of what anyone says today, it may haunt you in future.
5. You are not going to get stuck in "limbo" if there is some problem with your landing in Canada. Two reasons: a. you could still be admitted in your existing status or as a visitor; or b. at the end of the day, your country of citizenship would accept you back.
6. It is possible, although unlikely, that if you have a bona-fide reason to visit the United States, a border guard may find out that you intend to land as residents in Canada on your return. That should not be a problem so long as you have another reason to visit the United States. People do the "Buffalo shuffle" all the time.
Jul 13th 2008 | 5:02 pm
#21
Happy in Canada.
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,440
From: Winnipeg, manitoba
Re: Flag-polling - no longer permitted.
very strange indeed,
I've been to the International peace gardens in North Dakota - but the restaurant was closed. So we turned around to go back to Winnipeg but without going thru any US border controls we had left Canada. Now trying to get back in was interesting and I don't think it would have been so simple with out the Canadian born friend in the car.
When did you leave Canada? - err 5 minutes ago.
Canadian - err not me or the wife - but she is.
Why did you leave Canada - for a sandwich
I've been to the International peace gardens in North Dakota - but the restaurant was closed. So we turned around to go back to Winnipeg but without going thru any US border controls we had left Canada. Now trying to get back in was interesting and I don't think it would have been so simple with out the Canadian born friend in the car.
When did you leave Canada? - err 5 minutes ago.
Canadian - err not me or the wife - but she is.
Why did you leave Canada - for a sandwich
Jul 14th 2008 | 1:48 pm
#22
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 558
From: Cochrane Alberta
Re: Flag-polling - no longer permitted.
we had the opposite experience a couple of months ago.
told the US customs we wanted to do the flag pole. he said, cant be done, are you sure you arnt visiting the next town?? wink wink, nudge nudge... "oh yes of course we are" says us.
"no probs" says he, quick $6 and a visa later we are in.. no need to go through the whole refused entry thing..
very nice guy, couldnt be more helpful.. the canadian CBSA guy was a tosser tho.. initially he wouldnt do the PR as he said it wasnt up to him to do immigration matters (WTF he is a border guard!!!) despite the PR instructions saying ANY border crossing will do it... i had to bite my tounge to not tell him what a sad little jobsworth he was..
luckily his more helpful co worker took over and all was sorted...
told the US customs we wanted to do the flag pole. he said, cant be done, are you sure you arnt visiting the next town?? wink wink, nudge nudge... "oh yes of course we are" says us.
"no probs" says he, quick $6 and a visa later we are in.. no need to go through the whole refused entry thing..
very nice guy, couldnt be more helpful.. the canadian CBSA guy was a tosser tho.. initially he wouldnt do the PR as he said it wasnt up to him to do immigration matters (WTF he is a border guard!!!) despite the PR instructions saying ANY border crossing will do it... i had to bite my tounge to not tell him what a sad little jobsworth he was..
luckily his more helpful co worker took over and all was sorted...
Jul 14th 2008 | 2:24 pm
#23
Happy in NB
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,020
From: Island View, New Brunswick
Re: Flag-polling - no longer permitted.
In my humble experience (yes I can be humble) the US border guards are more obnoxious than the Canadian ones (who often say"Welcome home").
We were stopped on our drive back to Boston after completing our reccie trip into NB (it was cheaper to fly to boston rent a car and drive up, than fly to halifax rent a car and drive around).
Anyway I was grilled by the border guard/immigration dude for about 10 minutes on that specific question. Then when my story didnt change we asked if we had any citrus fruits in the car. I replied no. He asked did we have any food. I replied no, he pointed to a dunking donuts bag the girls were clutching on the backseat and said "So what is that", I looked around and said (with a straight face) "Oh dunking donuts ...well they really cant be classed as food can they". He turned human and laughed
then waved me on. 
That was my best experience at the US border, every other time I have felt like a terror threat or a drug runner, I have been singled out several times during flights for special security checks, bags searched, laptop tested wiped sniffed etc, again my request that they clean the whole screen while at it meant with disapproval of such levity during an obviously serious matter. I guess it must be the Scarlet Suit and my indestructible nature they worry about!
We were stopped on our drive back to Boston after completing our reccie trip into NB (it was cheaper to fly to boston rent a car and drive up, than fly to halifax rent a car and drive around).
Anyway I was grilled by the border guard/immigration dude for about 10 minutes on that specific question. Then when my story didnt change we asked if we had any citrus fruits in the car. I replied no. He asked did we have any food. I replied no, he pointed to a dunking donuts bag the girls were clutching on the backseat and said "So what is that", I looked around and said (with a straight face) "Oh dunking donuts ...well they really cant be classed as food can they". He turned human and laughed
then waved me on. That was my best experience at the US border, every other time I have felt like a terror threat or a drug runner, I have been singled out several times during flights for special security checks, bags searched, laptop tested wiped sniffed etc, again my request that they clean the whole screen while at it meant with disapproval of such levity during an obviously serious matter. I guess it must be the Scarlet Suit and my indestructible nature they worry about!
Jul 14th 2008 | 2:29 pm
#24
Forum Regular
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 119
Re: Flag-polling - no longer permitted.
Fascinating read... thanks everyone.
I am in Canada, and ready to land as a PR. I think I will go through with my plan of taking a weekend mini-break somewhere in the States for beach, city, sightseeing whatever and then fly back to Pearson where I will suddenly decide I want to land as a PR
Based on this thread it sounds like spending a day or two in the States with some purpose (tourism, sightseeing, shopping, whatever) is the best option.
Enter the US through visa waiver, and then arrive back to Canadian immigration and then make your intent to land as a PR known.
Unless I've read this all wrong?!
I am in Canada, and ready to land as a PR. I think I will go through with my plan of taking a weekend mini-break somewhere in the States for beach, city, sightseeing whatever and then fly back to Pearson where I will suddenly decide I want to land as a PR
Based on this thread it sounds like spending a day or two in the States with some purpose (tourism, sightseeing, shopping, whatever) is the best option. Enter the US through visa waiver, and then arrive back to Canadian immigration and then make your intent to land as a PR known.
Unless I've read this all wrong?!
Jul 14th 2008 | 2:31 pm
#25
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,020
Re: Flag-polling - no longer permitted.
Fascinating read... thanks everyone.
I am in Canada, and ready to land as a PR. I think I will go through with my plan of taking a weekend mini-break somewhere in the States for beach, city, sightseeing whatever and then fly back to Pearson where I will suddenly decide I want to land as a PR Based on this thread it sounds like spending a day or two in the States with some purpose (tourism, sightseeing, shopping, whatever) is the best option.
Enter the US through visa waiver, and then arrive back to Canadian immigration and then make your intent to land as a PR known.
Unless I've read this all wrong?!
I am in Canada, and ready to land as a PR. I think I will go through with my plan of taking a weekend mini-break somewhere in the States for beach, city, sightseeing whatever and then fly back to Pearson where I will suddenly decide I want to land as a PR
Based on this thread it sounds like spending a day or two in the States with some purpose (tourism, sightseeing, shopping, whatever) is the best option. Enter the US through visa waiver, and then arrive back to Canadian immigration and then make your intent to land as a PR known.
Unless I've read this all wrong?!
Jul 14th 2008 | 2:32 pm
#26
Happy in NB
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,020
From: Island View, New Brunswick
Re: Flag-polling - no longer permitted.
Jul 14th 2008 | 2:34 pm
#27
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,020
Re: Flag-polling - no longer permitted.
If I was a little bit gayer, the homoerotic side of it might appeal to me, but as it is, I think I'll have to decline this time. Although I do hear that the booze is criminally cheap.
Jul 14th 2008 | 2:37 pm
#28
Forum Regular
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 119
Re: Flag-polling - no longer permitted.
If you're landing on a flight from Toronto in Memphis, Nashville, Orlando (or some other vaguely interesting US city) and say your visiting the sights for the weekend I doubt it would become an issue.
Jul 14th 2008 | 8:50 pm
#29
Retired
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 34,646
Re: Flag-polling - no longer permitted.
If you fly from Toronto, or the other major Canadian airports, you will do U.S. customs and immigration before departure.
Jul 15th 2008 | 12:05 am
#30
Forum Regular
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 119
Re: Flag-polling - no longer permitted.
Ah right, understood JAJ.
I suppose it's just a weekend mini-break, purpose: tourism. Visit the amazing giant roadside something or other, hand in I94W to the airline when checking in for return and then make intention known to land as PR when arriving at Canadian Customs and Immigration.
I suppose it's just a weekend mini-break, purpose: tourism. Visit the amazing giant roadside something or other, hand in I94W to the airline when checking in for return and then make intention known to land as PR when arriving at Canadian Customs and Immigration.
