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Canadian ETA/Sharing info with US

Canadian ETA/Sharing info with US

Old Apr 17th 2014, 4:04 pm
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Default Re: Canadian ETA/Sharing info with US

Originally Posted by gozitanguygoinghome99xx View Post
True. I was just saying I understand your point of view on that.

Yes. Why would I apply for a visa with my Canadian passport when I can work legally with my EU passport? The difference between me and the EU nationals from Eastern Europe is i'm not coming to the UK to use your welfare system or the NHS. I would be coming there to work and contribute to the British economy, not just take from it. Now i'm sure there are some of the Eastern Europeans that are planning to do just that, but most of them from what i've seen on the forum here and on the news are just there for the welfare and the NHS.

True, but I like my gadgets! Thats my hobby, besides travel and moving abroad research. I'm kind of a gadget head.
By comparing legal migrants to illegal immigrants you are not really showing that you understand that point of view though.

Now I wouldn't say that the majority of Eastern Europeans are in the UK for the welfare state and NHS. You may think that if you've been reading The Daily Mail, or The Sun. From my experience a lot of the time Eastern European migrants are willing to do the work than many Brits would see as not good enough for them, perhaps in the same way as LMO's are used for workers from Asia here in Canada.

And who knows, the UK may not be a member of the EU for too many more years, in which case you may need a visa no matter which passport you use!
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Old Apr 17th 2014, 4:40 pm
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Default Re: Canadian ETA/Sharing info with US

Extensive research has shown that eastern european migration to the UK is economically beneficial to both. Even the people trying to stop it (MigrationWatch) concluded it was financially beneficial (their figure was smaller, though) and were left arguing that the finances didn't counteract the other effects.

I know your signature says you're 15, but your assertions in this thread (e.g. that no european nations are arrogant, you can afford a great jetsetting lifestyle on a normal UK wage, and most eastern europeans are abusing welfare nets less generous than their own) are.... profoundly ill-informed. I'd not discourage anyone from activating citizenship they're entitled to to boost their options, but if you're serious about moving to Europe, you really might want to do some more research than you seem to have.
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Old Apr 17th 2014, 7:45 pm
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Default Re: Canadian ETA/Sharing info with US

Originally Posted by MrFloyd View Post
Mmm, I'd also add that you're likely to have a lot less money than you realise for zipping over to Malta. Rent in the UK is exceptionally expensive and set to continue rising for quite some time (not including council tax, etc), and then there is living! In fact, flying to Malta might be one of the cheaper things you can do... if you haven't been bled dry already.
I think there is a perception with Europe that people are jetting off for long weekends all the time to Spain, France, Italy - if only hey!

Last edited by beckiwoo; Apr 17th 2014 at 7:54 pm.
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Old Apr 17th 2014, 8:52 pm
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Default Re: Canadian ETA/Sharing info with US

Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian View Post
There is no ESTA passport per se ESTA is an application for visitors seeking to enter the USA for tourism or business under the Visa Waiver Programme.
https://esta.cbp.dhs.gov/esta/
What you intend to do and many others enquire about is flying into the USA and then travelling to Canada by land (no connecting flight). This is not allowed under their rules. Now having a return ticket back to where you came from from a US airport MIGHT not arouse as much suspicion but really you have no intention of visiting and staying in the USA per se you are just using their airports as a cheaper means of travel.
So now you arrive at a US airport having applied for the ESTA and a return ticket.
The US officers now ask you where you are staying, what will you be doing in the USA etc etc what will be your answers with no hotel bookings and itinerary etc.
Get a bad officer then you might just be on the next plane back.
How much money will you have saved then?
Cheaper flights maybe but inherent risks. Different story if you have friends/relatives in the USA with an address and contact numbers
True... I wasn't aware of that before... Its not an issue anyways as per this thread it seems like i'll have to keep renewing the Canadian passport anyways, in which case i'll use it to travel to the US, since it is a lot less restrictive.

Originally Posted by beckiwoo View Post
Don't assume Europe or the UK is the land of milk and honey. With the UK expect a lot more miserable and rude people then what you are used to in Canada
Ah well Canada isn't quite the land of milk and honey either! It is the land of maple syrup though
I'd think for my requirements I could earn a decent UK salary (I.T systems analyst?) , probably similar to Canada, but I might live in a smaller house - which doesn't matter to me as long as there is fiber optics for internet! No crappy DSL connections for me.
Originally Posted by MrFloyd View Post
Mmm, I'd also add that you're likely to have a lot less money than you realise for zipping over to Malta. Rent in the UK is exceptionally expensive and set to continue rising for quite some time (not including council tax, etc), and then there is living! In fact, flying to Malta might be one of the cheaper things you can do... if you haven't been bled dry already.
Is it as expensive (or more?) than Canada? Remember all the things I would save on though, like car insurance... So it would balance out in the end i hope

Originally Posted by burks View Post
He must be used to that already, being a member of BE and all! haha!
Yes I think I can handle the British attitude, being exposed to it on here and all

Originally Posted by burks View Post
By comparing legal migrants to illegal immigrants you are not really showing that you understand that point of view though.

Well sorry that wasn't conveyed, lol.

Now I wouldn't say that the majority of Eastern Europeans are in the UK for the welfare state and NHS. You may think that if you've been reading The Daily Mail, or The Sun. From my experience a lot of the time Eastern European migrants are willing to do the work than many Brits would see as not good enough for them, perhaps in the same way as LMO's are used for workers from Asia here in Canada.

I might be slightly guilty of reading those rogue papers . I guess it's sort of like the fact that there are all foreigners working in Canadian McDonalds, Timmies, etc. Canadians don't want to do that work, they frown upon it, but someone has to do it, so the foreigners do it. But it does make you wonder... They are moving abroad for a "better life" . Is making minimum wage and barely scraping by really a "better life" ?

And who knows, the UK may not be a member of the EU for too many more years, in which case you may need a visa no matter which passport you use!
I'm also guilty of hoping the referendum doesn't result in the UK's withdrawal for that exact reason. Though I think if it did there would be relaxed visa procedures for EU nationals.
Originally Posted by Vulcanoid View Post
Extensive research has shown that eastern european migration to the UK is economically beneficial to both. Even the people trying to stop it (MigrationWatch) concluded it was financially beneficial (their figure was smaller, though) and were left arguing that the finances didn't counteract the other effects.
Interesting...
I know your signature says you're 15, but your assertions in this thread (e.g. that no european nations are arrogant, you can afford a great jetsetting lifestyle on a normal UK wage, and most eastern europeans are abusing welfare nets less generous than their own) are.... profoundly ill-informed. I'd not discourage anyone from activating citizenship they're entitled to to boost their options, but if you're serious about moving to Europe, you really might want to do some more research than you seem to have.
Oh trust me, there are some arrogant european nations, but none as arrogant as "The land of the free and the home of the brave" ... Regarding the east europeans, obviously my research is based on reading the aforementioned papers ... Yeah I guess you're right I didn't/haven't research/ed much beyond Malta's economy, which I know is bad. I know the UK's is very good compared to Malta's. I guess I really don't care because I am going to leave Canada either way. Whether it's to Malta or the UK I don't know, but I will be going. If I have a slightly less salary in the UK (or Malta) or my money doesn't go as far, then so be it. I can almost guarantee i'll be happier abroad.

Originally Posted by beckiwoo View Post
I think there is a perception with Europe that people are jetting off for long weekends all the time to Spain, France, Italy - if only hey!
Well you certainly get more holidays from work in the UK than Canada... So more opportunities to travel. And even if it's expensive by British standards, it's probably cheap by mine since travel from Toronto to Florida costs $500 a person. Cripes, to visit family in Thunder Bay it cost $350! From Toronto!

But no, I wouldn't expect to "jet off" every few weekends to Malta. I think my grandmother and uncle would grow tired of me if I did that!

I would expect to be able to visit Malta a few times a year and maybe go to Canada once. (once I get my career launched and earning a decent salary of course. I don't expect to land in the UK and be able to do this instantaneously). Of course i'd have to save on things to be able to do this, example - live in a smaller house/apartment.
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Old Apr 17th 2014, 9:23 pm
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Default Re: Canadian ETA/Sharing info with US

Originally Posted by gozitanguygoinghome99xx View Post
I'd think for my requirements I could earn a decent UK salary (I.T systems analyst?) , probably similar to Canada, but I might live in a smaller house - which doesn't matter to me as long as there is fiber optics for internet! No crappy DSL connections for me.

Is it as expensive (or more?) than Canada? Remember all the things I would save on though, like car insurance... So it would balance out in the end i hope

Well you certainly get more holidays from work in the UK than Canada... So more opportunities to travel. And even if it's expensive by British standards, it's probably cheap by mine since travel from Toronto to Florida costs $500 a person. Cripes, to visit family in Thunder Bay it cost $350! From Toronto
The UK job market is extremely competitive. Maybe why there are so many Brits over here! haha. Almost half of graduates find themselves in jobs which do not require a degree.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/...stuck-jobs-ons

As for if it is cheaper. That would depend on where in the UK you would settle. Car insurance may actually be quite expensive for a new driver in the UK. There are also added expenses like Road Tax and MOT plus there is the price of petrol/diesel. Public transport isn't know for it's value in the UK either. Look a spending a couple thousand ££'s for an annual train pass to commute into London! Groceries may be a bit cheaper, as will phone contracts. Can't think of too much else that would be significantly cheaper.
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Old Apr 17th 2014, 9:31 pm
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Default Re: Canadian ETA/Sharing info with US

Originally Posted by burks View Post
The UK job market is extremely competitive. Maybe why there are so many Brits over here! haha. Almost half of graduates find themselves in jobs which do not require a degree.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/...stuck-jobs-ons

As for if it is cheaper. That would depend on where in the UK you would settle. Car insurance may actually be quite expensive for a new driver in the UK. There are also added expenses like Road Tax and MOT plus there is the price of petrol/diesel. Public transport isn't know for it's value in the UK either. Look a spending a couple thousand ££'s for an annual train pass to commute into London! Groceries may be a bit cheaper, as will phone contracts. Can't think of too much else that would be significantly cheaper.
Ah yeah i'll be buying a car... So no care for public transport... I was planning on settling in Bristol or Cardiff/Swansea... Not London as it is very expensive... I remember one company mentioned on here that was generous towards new/returning drivers. The farmers union or something? ACU? Are those places cheaper or not? (Compared to the GTA.)
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Old Apr 17th 2014, 9:38 pm
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Default Re: Canadian ETA/Sharing info with US

Originally Posted by gozitanguygoinghome99xx View Post
Is it as expensive (or more?) than Canada? Remember all the things I would save on though, like car insurance... So it would balance out in the end i hope

Oh trust me, there are some arrogant european nations, but none as arrogant as "The land of the free and the home of the brave" ... Regarding the east europeans, obviously my research is based on reading the aforementioned papers ... Yeah I guess you're right I didn't/haven't research/ed much beyond Malta's economy, which I know is bad. I know the UK's is very good compared to Malta's. I guess I really don't care because I am going to leave Canada either way. Whether it's to Malta or the UK I don't know, but I will be going. If I have a slightly less salary in the UK (or Malta) or my money doesn't go as far, then so be it. I can almost guarantee i'll be happier abroad.

Well you certainly get more holidays from work in the UK than Canada... So more opportunities to travel. And even if it's expensive by British standards, it's probably cheap by mine since travel from Toronto to Florida costs $500 a person. Cripes, to visit family in Thunder Bay it cost $350! From Toronto

I would expect to be able to visit Malta a few times a year and maybe go to Canada once. (once I get my career launched and earning a decent salary of course. I don't expect to land in the UK and be able to do this instantaneously). Of course i'd have to save on things to be able to do this, example - live in a smaller house/apartment.
Car insurance in the UK is so expensive that lots of young people don't drive. For young men (up to mid 20s) bring quoted £4000 for a year (if you can find cover at all) is not uncommon.

I just looked up online, and was advertised flights Toronto to Miami return for $380 return, 3 hours each way. £200 for a 3 hour return flight sounds about right (for a budget carrier. Legacy carriers would be more). I nearly did that at Christmas actually when a new Reykjavik route launched, would have been £120 each way for 3 hours on easyjet.

I can currently afford multiple holidays a year. My salary is in the top 20% of the country. You're aiming very high, aand I'm not sure you have any idea how expensive UK housing, in particular, is. I'm not sure what you're looking for to make you happy. I hope you find it.
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Old Apr 17th 2014, 9:46 pm
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Default Re: Canadian ETA/Sharing info with US

Originally Posted by gozitanguygoinghome99xx View Post
Ah yeah i'll be buying a car... So no care for public transport... I was planning on settling in Bristol or Cardiff/Swansea... Not London as it is very expensive... I remember one company mentioned on here that was generous towards new/returning drivers. The farmers union or something? ACU? Are those places cheaper or not? (Compared to the GTA.)
Buying a car will then see you paying Road Tax and MOT yearly (providing the car is older than 3 years old). Not sure which companies would be best for a foreign driver new to the country as I have never needed that in the UK. But a new driver is a lot different to a returning driver. I am also not in the GTA so wouldn't be able to compare the two.
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Old Apr 17th 2014, 9:49 pm
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Default Re: Canadian ETA/Sharing info with US

Originally Posted by Vulcanoid View Post
Car insurance in the UK is so expensive that lots of young people don't drive. For young men (up to mid 20s) bring quoted £4000 for a year (if you can find cover at all) is not uncommon.

Well 2000 GBP for a public transport pass, plus the added non-benefits of having to potentially wait for stops in the rain, get up earlier etc vs 4000 for the convenience of a car... (plus car loan fees and all, petrol and road tax) . Seems like a no brainer to me, but maybe that's because I am growing up in North America.

I just looked up online, and was advertised flights Toronto to Miami return for $380 return, 3 hours each way. £200 for a 3 hour return flight sounds about right (for a budget carrier. Legacy carriers would be more). I nearly did that at Christmas actually when a new Reykjavik route launched, would have been £120 each way for 3 hours on easyjet.

Please tell me where you found that so cheap! But yes Air Malta advertises 200 GBP for LHR/LGW-MLA round trip. Around 3 hour flight.

I can currently afford multiple holidays a year. My salary is in the top 20% of the country. You're aiming very high, aand I'm not sure you have any idea how expensive UK housing, in particular, is. I'm not sure what you're looking for to make you happy. I hope you find it.
Mainly, to live in a country where there isn't snow and freezing temperatures in the winter time, and where I can make a decent living and afford to go home [to Malta] a couple times a year. If it means living in a smaller house and/or driving a smaller car then so be it. The UK seems to fit that requirement well. Malta fits it too, minus the "decent living" thing. (Which is a pretty big thing) Going to uni and getting a degree only to earn €25,000 a year isn't very pleasing.

I know the UK is more expensive on certain fronts, but I don't think I could afford to go to Malta 2-3 times a year in Canada at roughly $1,500 a time, plus around €150-200 to rent a vehicle. I think I could afford to do that in the UK if I made certain concessions in life that other people may not be able to make. (smaller house/car, less savings, i'm not really a nightlife person so won't be wasting money on that, etc.)
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Old Apr 17th 2014, 9:54 pm
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Default Re: Canadian ETA/Sharing info with US

Originally Posted by burks View Post
Buying a car will then see you paying Road Tax and MOT yearly (providing the car is older than 3 years old). Not sure which companies would be best for a foreign driver new to the country as I have never needed that in the UK. But a new driver is a lot different to a returning driver. I am also not in the GTA so wouldn't be able to compare the two.
Keep in mind I will be 22-23 when I move over, not 18. Therefore having 6 years of driving experience when I move over. I have to stay here in Canada (reluctantly) to do uni, then I will be heading out. Don't know if that even makes a difference lol. I can swipe the Ontario license for a GB one without taking a test right? And I already know to pass the ON test in a manual and get the letter from the MTO saying I passed the test in a manual in order to exchange to a full GB license, not an auto-only.
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Old Apr 17th 2014, 10:02 pm
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Default Re: Canadian ETA/Sharing info with US

Originally Posted by gozitanguygoinghome99xx View Post
Ah yeah i'll be buying a car... So no care for public transport... I was planning on settling in Bristol or Cardiff/Swansea... Not London as it is very expensive... I remember one company mentioned on here that was generous towards new/returning drivers. The farmers union or something? ACU? Are those places cheaper or not? (Compared to the GTA.)
Swansea and Cardiff are not known for their economic vitality, and a proportion of jobs have emphasis placed on Welsh language skills, so finding good work isn't impossible, but harder. Bristol is the richest, and thus most expensive large city in the UK outside London.

To give you an idea of costs - an inner zone day bus ticket in Bristol (covers most of the urban area) is $7.40, petrol is $2.44/litre (and we're the most congested city in the UK, with an average driving speed of 12mph. You'll burn a lot of money sitting still). My flat is $1054 a month and that's far cheaper than most of my mates. When you want to go on vacation, it's a $24 bus ticket return to the airport (or a 15 mile drive down narrow country roads, and $7 a day to park longstay advance booked). Average wages are $36-44k. Council tax is $1800-6000 a year depending on house/flat cost.

Actually, adding to post now you've added some more - if you did move to Bristol, buying individual bus tickets every day would be £960 a year ($1700), season tickets probably take a fair bit off that. If you think the no-brainer is to spend vastly more on a car.... no.

I googled flights Toronto Miami and clicked on the first link. Probably a outlier. But didn't seem off the charts. I don't know much about cost of internal north american travel, but I do know European is nothing like as cheap as it was a few years ago.

British weather is profoundly miserable. Nowhere in the UK is as sunny as the gloomiest parts of Canada (we'll skip over Malta lest my skin simply leave without me). It's also very humid, and 'close' - the sheer number of Scandinavians I've known who shiver, and complain about how cold it is is stunning - because we're not geared for it in the same way other countries are. Our buildings & wardrobes are not appropriate for the temperatures we get, because we reason we don't get enough snow to make it worthwhile.

I'm a little confused where you say 'going to uni and getting a degree only to earn E25k isn't pleasing' - that's about £20k, nearly dead on the average UK graduate starting salary (bearing in mind half of graduates earn less than that, and that's of the ones who managed to get jobs).
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Old Apr 17th 2014, 10:05 pm
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Default Re: Canadian ETA/Sharing info with US

Originally Posted by gozitanguygoinghome99xx View Post
Well 2000 GBP for a public transport pass, plus the added non-benefits of having to potentially wait for stops in the rain, get up earlier etc vs 4000 for the convenience of a car... (plus car loan fees and all, petrol and road tax) . Seems like a no brainer to me, but maybe that's because I am growing up in North America.

I know the UK is more expensive on certain fronts, but I don't think I could afford to go to Malta 2-3 times a year in Canada at roughly $1,500 a time, plus around €150-200 to rent a vehicle. I think I could afford to do that in the UK if I made certain concessions in life that other people may not be able to make. (smaller house/car, less savings, i'm not really a nightlife person so won't be wasting money on that, etc.)
Insurance, plus petrol, tax, loan fees (no UK credit.. higher interest), MOT etc adds up to a large proportion of your income. Don't you think that if it were as easy as to cut back on a few nights out that people in the UK wouldn't have already thought of that!??

Also, you mention a couple of times about having a smaller house and smaller car. You do realise that some of the most popular cars in the UK are smaller hatchbacks (Ford Fiesta/Focus, Vauxhall Corsa, VW Golf/Polo, Peugeot 208, Fiat 500). The properties in the UK are generally smaller too in my experience (I don't know about GTA, but out here they are). So you wouldn't be making any concessions. The only reason young people may be living in larger houses is because they can't afford to move out of their parents house!
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Old Apr 17th 2014, 10:08 pm
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Default Re: Canadian ETA/Sharing info with US

Originally Posted by gozitanguygoinghome99xx View Post
Keep in mind I will be 22-23 when I move over, not 18. Therefore having 6 years of driving experience when I move over. I have to stay here in Canada (reluctantly) to do uni, then I will be heading out. Don't know if that even makes a difference lol. I can swipe the Ontario license for a GB one without taking a test right? And I already know to pass the ON test in a manual and get the letter from the MTO saying I passed the test in a manual in order to exchange to a full GB license, not an auto-only.
But the chances are they will only care about UK driving experience, in the same way as Canadian insurers often won't credit our experience when we move here.
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Old Apr 17th 2014, 10:18 pm
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Default Re: Canadian ETA/Sharing info with US

Originally Posted by Vulcanoid View Post
Swansea and Cardiff are not known for their economic vitality, and a proportion of jobs have emphasis placed on Welsh language skills, so finding good work isn't impossible, but harder. Bristol is the richest, and thus most expensive large city in the UK outside London.

Ooh yeah. Forgot about Welsh... So is Bristol more expensive than say, Toronto? I really don't know much about elsewhere in the UK, so if you could recommend a better city, i'm all ears!

To give you an idea of costs - an inner zone day bus ticket in Bristol (covers most of the urban area) is $7.40, petrol is $2.44/litre (and we're the most congested city in the UK, with an average driving speed of 12mph. You'll burn a lot of money sitting still). My flat is $1054 a month and that's far cheaper than most of my mates. When you want to go on vacation, it's a $24 bus ticket return to the airport (or a 15 mile drive down narrow country roads, and $7 a day to park longstay advance booked). Average wages are $36-44k. Council tax is $1800-6000 a year depending on house/flat cost.

Did you mean average wages in GBP or Can$? 44,000 a year in Canadian seems awfully low, whereas 36k GBP is fine. Thanks for the average costs, Seems similar to where I live in Canada...

Actually, adding to post now you've added some more - if you did move to Bristol, buying individual bus tickets every day would be £960 a year ($1700), season tickets probably take a fair bit off that. If you think the no-brainer is to spend vastly more on a car.... no.

Ah. I was going off someone's (yours?) quote of 2000 a year (GBP) for a bus pass, vs your quote of 4000 for car insurance.

I googled flights Toronto Miami and clicked on the first link. Probably a outlier. But didn't seem off the charts. I don't know much about cost of internal north american travel, but I do know European is nothing like as cheap as it was a few years ago.
True.
British weather is profoundly miserable. Nowhere in the UK is as sunny as the gloomiest parts of Canada (we'll skip over Malta lest my skin simply leave without me). It's also very humid, and 'close' - the sheer number of Scandinavians I've known who shiver, and complain about how cold it is is stunning - because we're not geared for it in the same way other countries are. Our buildings & wardrobes are not appropriate for the temperatures we get, because we reason we don't get enough snow to make it worthwhile.

I'm aware of the less than desirable weather in the UK, but I hate the winters here so much I think i'd be able to deal with it. Though I was counting on those Malta trips to get a break from the UK rain
I'm a little confused where you say 'going to uni and getting a degree only to earn E25k isn't pleasing' - that's about £20k, nearly dead on the average UK graduate starting salary (bearing in mind half of graduates earn less than that, and that's of the ones who managed to get jobs).

In Malta even someone with 5 years experience plus a degree is making barely minimum wage in their chosen field. They can be making much more in the UK, which is where alot of Maltese go. That's where I was going with that. I know coming out of uni salaries are low, but in the UK (or Canada for that matter) it gets better, slowly but surely. In Malta it doesn't. You just stay on sh*t salary forever.
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Old Apr 17th 2014, 10:26 pm
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Default Re: Canadian ETA/Sharing info with US

Originally Posted by burks View Post
Insurance, plus petrol, tax, loan fees (no UK credit.. higher interest)
No Canadian credit either LOL!
, MOT etc adds up to a large proportion of your income. Don't you think that if it were as easy as to cut back on a few nights out that people in the UK wouldn't have already thought of that!??
True. But if I was making, say 33k GBP (about Can$60,000) , I would be able to afford somewhat nicer house/car, but I could get a car/house that one would normally get on a 20-25k GBP salary, and save the money for travel... At least I thought that was a solid idea
Also, you mention a couple of times about having a smaller house and smaller car. You do realise that some of the most popular cars in the UK are smaller hatchbacks (Ford Fiesta/Focus, Vauxhall Corsa, VW Golf/Polo, Peugeot 208, Fiat 500). The properties in the UK are generally smaller too in my experience (I don't know about GTA, but out here they are). So you wouldn't be making any concessions. The only reason young people may be living in larger houses is because they can't afford to move out of their parents house!

Yeah and that's what i'd be going for... (I really like those Opel (sorry Vauxhall in the UK but its the same car) Adam's. They are fun and cheap. My kind of car ) Guess you're right though, the cars i'd be going for are "normal" cars in the UK, not "cheap" cars... And of course properties are smaller in the UK it's much smaller than Canada. But in the GTA they are getting smaller and more expensive. My grandparents just sold their Mississauga condo which they acquired in 2000 for about $200,000 , for $470,000 !
Originally Posted by HGerchikov View Post
But the chances are they will only care about UK driving experience, in the same way as Canadian insurers often won't credit our experience when we move here.

True... That's kind of dumb though IMO. Why should experience in a country whose license is reputable enough to be exchanged for a UK license without a test be worth nothing in the UK, and vice versa.
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