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Canadian ETA/Sharing info with US

Canadian ETA/Sharing info with US

Old Apr 13th 2014, 3:11 pm
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Angry Canadian ETA/Sharing info with US

http://www.mondaq.com/canada/x/28722...zation+Program


So Canada is planning to implement an ETA system... That's all fine and good, but why are British subjects with right of abode stamps exempt from ETA, but normal British citizens are not ?

And especially, why are citizens of the "State of Israel" going to be exempt from it? They should definitely be required to apply if normal European citizens are as well. I think an Israeli that lives in a war-state is more of a risk than your standard European traveler. That's just like Stephen Harper calling up Mossad and saying "Hey, send your anti-arab spies over here, we've already exempted them from ETA!"



And here http://canadianimmigrant.ca/news-and...lers-to-canada

Will the new requirement for the airline to report the info of people exiting Canada not affect dual citizens who are using their non-Canadian passport to travel abroad, as it does in the USA?

Why do we have to listen to the USA on everything? Our leaders need to figure out that we are not part of the United States. We should not harmonize our immigration procedures with that of the United States. Information of Canadian citizens and permanent residents traveling should not be shared with the United States. Nor should that of foreigners visiting Canada. The US should only be involved if the traveler is traveling to, from, or through the United States.

I only hope the European Union doesn't have sharing agreements with the US like this. I think they learned their lesson though with the US agents spying on Brussels.
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Old Apr 13th 2014, 6:55 pm
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Default Re: Canadian ETA/Sharing info with US

I think the author of the article you link to isn't interpreting the notice of intent correctly.

The Notice says:
Foreign nationals who are currently exempt from the TRV and who could be subject to the eTA requirement include

Citizens of current visa-exempt countries listed in subsection 190(1) of the Regulations, other than citizens of the United States, and foreign nationals travelling with passports listed under subsections 190(2) and (2.1); and
Which I reckon to mean: ETA will apply to visa-exempt counties in 190(1) [which include the UK] _excluding_ the US. ETA will also apply to passports listed in 190(2) and (2.1) which includes Holy See, State of Israel, British Subjects with right-of-abode stamps, etc.
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Old Apr 13th 2014, 7:05 pm
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Default Re: Canadian ETA/Sharing info with US

By the way Gozitanguy, this mix-up probably happened because the Regulations are a wee bit confusing:

190(1) talks about visa-exemption for certain nationalities
190(2) does the same for people holding certain travel documents

Which isn't the same thing - although in English, people often use 'I hold a UK passport' and 'I'm a British Citizen' interchangably. But historically, holding a passport of a country didn't necessarily mean you were a citizen of that country. If you wanted to travel to France in the 19th century for example, it made sense to apply for a French passport. Of course, such a French passport would state 'British' (or whatever nationality the case may be) instead of 'French' in the 'Citizen of' section.

This is still the case for certain passports. To carry a passport of the Holy See, you don't need to be a Holy-See-ian. People who otherwise need a visa become visa-exempt just by holding a Holy See passport.
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Old Apr 13th 2014, 7:20 pm
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Default Re: Canadian ETA/Sharing info with US

PPS Hong Kong and Taiwan aren't in 190(1) because if they were, Canada would imply that a separate Hong-Kong and Taiwanese citizenship existed. And then mainland China would start throwing toys out of the pram

Politics...
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Old Apr 14th 2014, 12:59 am
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Default Re: Canadian ETA/Sharing info with US

Originally Posted by gozitanguygoinghome99xx View Post
So Canada is planning to implement an ETA system... That's all fine and good, but why are British subjects with right of abode stamps exempt from ETA, but normal British citizens are not ?
Not sure if they've expressed it correctly but I think what they're getting at are belongers of British territories who are BOTCs (BOTCs have a right to reside in the UK). Those people are exempt from visas to enter the US and Canada under older agreements than the VWP, they simply have to prove they have a police clearance. Belongers of Bermuda are completely exempt because the US and Canada have an agreement with Bermuda. So the ETA won't apply to them either.

And especially, why are citizens of the "State of Israel" going to be exempt from it?
Because there are pre-existing screening agreements with Israel.

Will the new requirement for the airline to report the info of people exiting Canada not affect dual citizens who are using their non-Canadian passport to travel abroad, as it does in the USA?
Maybe, but that's your fault for not using your Canadian passport.

Why do we have to listen to the USA on everything?
The Beyond the Border Initiative was a Canadian idea. Harper even got Obama into a room to announce it, even though the Americans didn't see the need.

We should not harmonize our immigration procedures with that of the United States. Information of Canadian citizens and permanent residents traveling should not be shared with the United States. Nor should that of foreigners visiting Canada. The US should only be involved if the traveler is traveling to, from, or through the United States.
I totally disagree with you, creates far more problems for us than it does for the Americans. Bear in mind this information has all been shared for many, many years. A CBP officer can right now ask to see the CBSA entry record, they just need to give some sort of reason. That agreement has been in place for decades. Plus they have access to CPIC. All this agreement does really is provide a greater level of integration between certain CBSA and CBP systems to prevent duplication of effort.

The US is our largest trading partner and anything that can be done to prevent duplicate inspections, harmonization of regulations, etc. is in our interest.

I only hope the European Union doesn't have sharing agreements with the US like this. I think they learned their lesson though with the US agents spying on Brussels.
The EU has fantastically more sharing agreements between states, known as the Schengen Agreement and the Lisbon Treaty to start with. Not to mention the European Commission and the European Parliament and many thousands and thousands of European Directives.

The US, the UK, New Zealand, Australia and Canada have been sharing intelligence information generally for decades. The NSA was (and probably still is) using GCHQ to intercept Google's hard lines going through the Irish Sea.

Read up on Ascension Island or Diego Garcia.
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Old Apr 14th 2014, 1:37 am
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Default Re: Canadian ETA/Sharing info with US

Originally Posted by FlyingDutchman6666 View Post
I think the author of the article you link to isn't interpreting the notice of intent correctly.

The Notice says:


Which I reckon to mean: ETA will apply to visa-exempt counties in 190(1) [which include the UK] _excluding_ the US. ETA will also apply to passports listed in 190(2) and (2.1) which includes Holy See, State of Israel, British Subjects with right-of-abode stamps, etc.
Originally Posted by FlyingDutchman6666 View Post
By the way Gozitanguy, this mix-up probably happened because the Regulations are a wee bit confusing:

190(1) talks about visa-exemption for certain nationalities
190(2) does the same for people holding certain travel documents

Which isn't the same thing - although in English, people often use 'I hold a UK passport' and 'I'm a British Citizen' interchangably. But historically, holding a passport of a country didn't necessarily mean you were a citizen of that country. If you wanted to travel to France in the 19th century for example, it made sense to apply for a French passport. Of course, such a French passport would state 'British' (or whatever nationality the case may be) instead of 'French' in the 'Citizen of' section.

This is still the case for certain passports. To carry a passport of the Holy See, you don't need to be a Holy-See-ian. People who otherwise need a visa become visa-exempt just by holding a Holy See passport.
Where do I apply for my Holy See passport?

Originally Posted by FlyingDutchman6666 View Post
PPS Hong Kong and Taiwan aren't in 190(1) because if they were, Canada would imply that a separate Hong-Kong and Taiwanese citizenship existed. And then mainland China would start throwing toys out of the pram

Politics...
But they are separate citizenships. HKSAR nationals can visit as many countries visa free than I can with my Canadian and EU passports. Same with Taiwanese. PRC passports, on the other hand, suck
Originally Posted by Steve_ View Post
Not sure if they've expressed it correctly but I think what they're getting at are belongers of British territories who are BOTCs (BOTCs have a right to reside in the UK). Those people are exempt from visas to enter the US and Canada under older agreements than the VWP, they simply have to prove they have a police clearance. Belongers of Bermuda are completely exempt because the US and Canada have an agreement with Bermuda. So the ETA won't apply to them either.


No, it specifically said "British subjects with Right of Abode" - which would be the pre-1949 Irish Brits. British Overseas Territories Citizens (BOTC) are not British Subjects - they have three statuses;
BOTC
Belonger of [BOTC Territory they are from]
British Citizen (if they chose to register)
Because there are pre-existing screening agreements with Israel.

Well there shouldn't be, IMO.

Maybe, but that's your fault for not using your Canadian passport.

Sorry? Why should I use my Canadian passport when I move to Europe? I will use my EU passport so I can exercise freedom of movement! (or right of abode if I move to Malta; the EU country I am a national of) Even if I am just traveling to the EU on vacation I will use my EU passport for the shorter line. I won't be forced to use the Canadian one to show CBSA I have "exited"

Worst case scenario I have to explain to a CBSA officer on my way back into Canada that I am infact a Canadian citizen, not an EU overstayer. Which would involve showing my Canadian passport, which I will always bring with me even if I don't use it on the trip. What's he gonna do, deport me? I'm a citizen so that can't happen.

The Beyond the Border Initiative was a Canadian idea. Harper even got Obama into a room to announce it, even though the Americans didn't see the need.

Harper's an idiot. I won't be voting for him when I can vote. He's too Israel-and-US cozy. We need a leader that is pro-Canada and pro-Canadians, not one that is just focussed on making the US and it's satellite state Israel happy and volunteering our information to the US. (and no this isn't just judged on this situation, it's judged on alot of other situations too... Heard of the TPP?)

I totally disagree with you, creates far more problems for us than it does for the Americans. Bear in mind this information has all been shared for many, many years. A CBP officer can right now ask to see the CBSA entry record, they just need to give some sort of reason. That agreement has been in place for decades. Plus they have access to CPIC. All this agreement does really is provide a greater level of integration between certain CBSA and CBP systems to prevent duplication of effort.

The US is our largest trading partner and anything that can be done to prevent duplicate inspections, harmonization of regulations, etc. is in our interest.



The EU has fantastically more sharing agreements between states, known as the Schengen Agreement and the Lisbon Treaty to start with. Not to mention the European Commission and the European Parliament and many thousands and thousands of European Directives.

Yeah but those agreements actually benefit citizens, ie no border controls in Schengen states and freedom of movement across the EU... I don't see how the US having access to my travel records is really in my interest.
.
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Old Apr 14th 2014, 4:25 am
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Default Re: Canadian ETA/Sharing info with US

But they are separate citizenships. HKSAR nationals can visit as many countries visa free than I can with my Canadian and EU passports. Same with Taiwanese. PRC passports, on the other hand, suck
Nope. Not even according to the Hong Kong passport office:

Who are Eligible?

You are eligible to apply for a HKSAR Passport if you are:

a Chinese citizen;
a permanent resident of the HKSAR; and
a holder of a valid Hong Kong permanent identity card.

As for Taiwan, the Taiwanese consider themselves to have 'Republic of China' citizenship. That country's borders encompass the whole of China, and all China's inhabitants are considered to be Republic of China citizens... but unfortunately (for the Taiwanese) most is occupied by the 'Communists'.

The 'Communists', in turn, consider Taiwan an integral part of their country, and all the island's inhabitants are communist citizens. Unfortunately (for the Communists) the island is occupied by the Nationalists.

Does this get crazy enough for you? Canada doesn't want to get involved in this crap (or rather, it does not want to offend the Communists) so it legislates on the basis of travel documents, not citizenship.
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Old Apr 14th 2014, 4:31 am
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Default Re: Canadian ETA/Sharing info with US

Originally Posted by gozitanguygoinghome99xx View Post
Where do I apply for my Holy See passport?
If you wish to write to the Pope, you may do so at the following address:

His Holiness, Pope Francis
Apostolic Palace
00120 Vatican City
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Old Apr 14th 2014, 8:30 pm
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Default Re: Canadian ETA/Sharing info with US

Originally Posted by FlyingDutchman6666 View Post
Nope. Not even according to the Hong Kong passport office:

Who are Eligible?

You are eligible to apply for a HKSAR Passport if you are:

a Chinese citizen;
a permanent resident of the HKSAR; and
a holder of a valid Hong Kong permanent identity card.

As for Taiwan, the Taiwanese consider themselves to have 'Republic of China' citizenship. That country's borders encompass the whole of China, and all China's inhabitants are considered to be Republic of China citizens... but unfortunately (for the Taiwanese) most is occupied by the 'Communists'.

The 'Communists', in turn, consider Taiwan an integral part of their country, and all the island's inhabitants are communist citizens. Unfortunately (for the Communists) the island is occupied by the Nationalists.

Does this get crazy enough for you? Canada doesn't want to get involved in this crap (or rather, it does not want to offend the Communists) so it legislates on the basis of travel documents, not citizenship.
Makes sense... I read on this a while ago...

Originally Posted by FlyingDutchman6666 View Post
If you wish to write to the Pope, you may do so at the following address:

His Holiness, Pope Francis
Apostolic Palace
00120 Vatican City
OK i'll let you know when I get my passport
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Old Apr 15th 2014, 2:01 pm
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Default Re: Canadian ETA/Sharing info with US

I've got ties to both Canada and the US so I am biased a bit and don't really mind more cooperation, and frankly would personally love to see a more open border.
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Old Apr 15th 2014, 2:37 pm
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Default Re: Canadian ETA/Sharing info with US

Originally Posted by Jsmth321 View Post
I've got ties to both Canada and the US so I am biased a bit and don't really mind more cooperation, and frankly would personally love to see a more open border.
It doesn't get much more open than in parts of BC, Alberta and the Prairies
Just walk across a field and voila in the US or Canada.
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Old Apr 15th 2014, 5:48 pm
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Default Re: Canadian ETA/Sharing info with US

Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian View Post
It doesn't get much more open than in parts of BC, Alberta and the Prairies
Just walk across a field and voila in the US or Canada.
True!
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Old Apr 15th 2014, 6:27 pm
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Default Re: Canadian ETA/Sharing info with US

Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian View Post
It doesn't get much more open than in parts of BC, Alberta and the Prairies
Just walk across a field and voila in the US or Canada.
I have always wondered how many people do that.. is it monitored at all?
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Old Apr 15th 2014, 8:26 pm
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Default Re: Canadian ETA/Sharing info with US

Originally Posted by burks View Post
I have always wondered how many people do that.. is it monitored at all?
Some discussion at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada%..._States_border

As to the rest, Australia started the concept of ETA in 1996 or so (it's not a U.S. idea). And since Canadian citizens in theory won't be eligible for ETA, it may well impose a de-facto requirement for Canadian citizens to use a Canadian passport for commercial travel to Canada. Equivalent to what is already the case in Australia.
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Old Apr 15th 2014, 8:53 pm
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Default Re: Canadian ETA/Sharing info with US

Originally Posted by JAJ View Post
Some discussion at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada%..._States_border

As to the rest, Australia started the concept of ETA in 1996 or so (it's not a U.S. idea). And since Canadian citizens in theory won't be eligible for ETA, it may well impose a de-facto requirement for Canadian citizens to use a Canadian passport for commercial travel to Canada. Equivalent to what is already the case in Australia.
Hmm.. it seems that if one really wanted to cross into the States, it wouldn't be too hard to do so from Canada.

Keeping on topic with the thread.. I don't get why one would be so against ETA. Personally, I already have to give my info to the States whenever flying there anyways. With Canada keeping exit records it should also help me prove residency requirements have been met when I get my PR. So if anything it may be better for me!
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