Originally Posted by Shard

Tesla is not a product? <mystified>

Originally Posted by Shard

Steve Jobs: more than a marketer, he built and re-built Apple, which is quite a feat (especially from where it was in the early 90's). He may well have adapted and improved technologies other companies developed, but that's business.

Originally Posted by GarryP

If there's one thing Musk isn't, it's a great marketeer. Have you ever seen him present? Whereas Jobs was perennially about selling someone else's advances as something he had done (eg he was a bullshit artist), and being a frankly nasty piece of work - Musk is an engineer at heart and has *actually* made real advances. The issue with his tweets is you can never be sure if he's joking, or if he's really going to do it? Most of the time it's the later.

But perhaps one of his best policies, and one that you obviously hate, he doesn't see the accrual of zeros in a bank account to be a worthwhile goal. Money is only of use if it's doing something positive, and that's what he's been doing. When you compare Tesla to the other car companies what you see is something with much more upside, the same market cap, off smaller sales.
What you also see are issues with manufacture of the 3 being overcome, with the Tesla Semi, Model Y and Roadster MkII coming along inside a few year.

The only question marks I'd have are can they cut the price of those batteries (a problem all car companies will have) and can they get the automation working by 2020 (again, the same problem as the other car companies). If both of those can get addressed, they will probably end up taking over one of the other major car companies (patents will be key).

Originally Posted by Beoz

No

Yes. I have never owned any Apple kit .... ever. I don't like it. However I admire what he did. He did take ideas of others and brought them to market and sold a shit load of them, which is what others failed to do.

Originally Posted by Beoz

See. You are selling futures. That's fine but it's a punt. They are losing money. Not making money. There's a big problem there.

Originally Posted by Shard

Gary's posting makes the point that Tesla is ploughing its operating income into R&D, and that the other two are not (which is a bit hard to believe). The implication being that if Tesla reduced R&D to zero it would be a profitable concern. It's not doing that as it sees the future as electric.

Originally Posted by Shard

Gary's posting makes the point that Tesla is ploughing its operating income into R&D, and that the other two are not (which is a bit hard to believe). The implication being that if Tesla reduced R&D to zero it would be a profitable concern. It's not doing that as it sees the future as electric.

Originally Posted by Shard

There are Teslas driving on the roads? They are not products? What are you on about?

Originally Posted by Beoz

Hardly in the league of an iPhone. Maybe one day he will get there and Garry's bet, while taking a long long time, might get there.

Originally Posted by Shard

I don't think any comparison with iPhones are valid. At the time, "in your pocket touchscreen" (+ iTunes and a few other whistles) was disruptive technology. The automobile market is far more staid, and even with the highest efficiency new cars, there will still be a huge fleet of legacy vehicles to retire. Public legislation will drive take up rates as much as anything else (crippling tax on fossil fuel vehicles, for example). I haven't been following Tesla closely, but from I understand the issues they have are to do with their automation process (not fully reliable) and the re-charging infrastructure out side or metropolitan zones. Neither of which are insurmountable, and give Elon's success with Space X, there doesn't seem to be much reason for pessimism.

Originally Posted by Beoz

See. Automation creates jobs.

https://www.smh.com.au/business/comp...03-p4zp63.html

Originally Posted by GarryP

That's nothing to do with automation. That's the reality that middle east and SE asia airlines have been snapping up pilots to expand their operations. It takes a *long* time to train someone up such that they can sit in the captain's seat, and even longer to get them to the standard they can train others. And the brutal reality is that Qantas and australian airlines haven't been either training up enough new people, or in more recent years, being prepared to pay the going rate those pilots can get overseas so they can keep them.

So they leave, and Qantas are up sh*t creek without a paddle in what is a global marketplace.

They need to pay more, but Joyce doesn't get that, so he keeps losing them.

Here's a story from 2015 - it's not a new issue.

https://www.smh.com.au/business/comp...11-gjk2xl.html

Originally Posted by Beoz

No. Flying automates the process of getting people from point A to point B. Look at all the jobs created around air travel.

As you point out the surge in requirement in Asia due to the automation of this mode of travel has meant demand, higher salaries and the like.

It wasn't that long ago an engineer was required in the cockpit and didn't they cry foul when his job was made redundant.

See ..... automation creates jobs.